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How about a fence, right here in the US? Try looking up Matthew Shepard and your man Tim Ravndal, what he recently did.
Daniel,
OUTSTANDING!
We 'dis' agree on some things, aye... but I love your honesty, Class, and kind Character in your presentation of thoughts and counter-point. Outstanding!
Now, I know that you made at least two queries, or further requests for clarification, based on the analogy (God as sovereign parent). At the moment, I have several things in mid-air waiting their turn for the next juggle-toss... and I'm worn out.
I will do my best to get back to this, and give the best reply I can, within a day or so.
I will say again, well done... and OUTSTANDING!
Kind Regards,
CM Sackett
Daniel,
OUTSTANDING!
We 'dis' agree on some things, aye... but I love your honesty, Class, and kind Character in your presentation of thoughts and counter-point. Outstanding!
Now, I know that you made at least two queries, or further requests for clarification, based on the analogy (God as sovereign parent). At the moment, I have several things in mid-air waiting their turn for the next juggle-toss... and I'm worn out.
I will do my best to get back to this, and give the best reply I can, within a day or so.
I will say again, well done... and OUTSTANDING!
Kind Regards,
CM Sackett
The atheist has no context in order to understand Bible teachings- The original text does not mean a physical death (although this is the only understanding for one who does not believe), but a spiritual death as in separation from God.
Actually when reading about a man lying with another man in the bible the whole story before it is most likely about prostitution. So the bible isnt saying that homosexuality is unacceptable, it is saying that homosexual prostitution is unacceptable. But that is just my opinion.
YOU WILL NOT HEAR ANY MAJOR CONSERVATIVE REFORMED EVANGELICAL CALLING FOR ANY PHYSICAL INCARCERATION OR PHYSICAL HARM AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS!!
If I chose to be Homosexual I would want a strong and vibrant Conservative Evangelical Christian voice TO BE A BUFFER between me and SHARIA LAW. I may not agree with the Conservative Christian's theology, but I would APPRECIATE THE BUFFER!!!
Conservative Evangelicals/Catholics could pledge to be that buffer even though they disagree with the gay community on lifestyle. They could stand together like Secular Feminists and Fundamentalist Christians protested SIDE BY SIDE IN MINNEAPOLIS AGAINST PORNOGRAPHY IN THE 80'S.
Ah, what a difference 1400 years make! Some religions have changed their practices, and some have not! The Muslims have not...
Christianity had a Reformation after an Enlightenment.
Islam, not so much.
Protestants earned their name for a reason.
tD
No, not hypocrisy, but your own ignorance and obvious lack of education.
The Bible is not the Manual for Courts Martial. Overall, in spite of lifetimes of sin, God has an unending supply of forgiveness. YOU should be put to death for your sin, and yet God has not allowed that to happen, and has not suffered anyone to seriously attempt to end your life. That's because He gives you the same degree of forgiveness for the rest of your life as he does gays. Don't get me wrong; I'm no homo booster. I genuinely despise homosexuality for the unrepentant rebellion against God that it is, and think all gays should be dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, immediately upon detection. However, I do not advocate, as a Christian, that they be harmed in any way, shape or form. More than once, I've had to physically intervene in attempts to harm homosexuals, and neither side had the wherewithal to understand why. The assaulting parties didn't understand why I didn't hate the gays as much as they did, and refused to allow them to injure them, while the homosexuals couldn't comprehend why an unabashed Christian would rush in to their defense with all necessary force and violence. I did it, because I'm a Christian, and that's the way God wanted it. In the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, where such activities were widespread, they had more than ample opportunity to turn away from what they were doing, and patently refused. Their blood was upon them, because they refused to turn away from the path of certain death, and save their own lives. They got tac nuked and they deserved it. However, the sentence was passed and executed by God, Himself; not by Humanity.
Dear Daniel,First, outstanding reply! (I gave you a "like"). And my apologies for such a late response... been a bit busy around the place. Now, my apologies for my post 'setting off alarms'. I was speaking to a specific, known (as in his/her history here) individual, and even in that, was not speaking to ANYTHING outside the parameters of the context of the sentence the words "Ask the God who lets you live..." began. (I have neither idea nor care to know his/her 'sexuality').As just mentioned, the sentence was crafted for a specific individual and a particular component of their known manner and character here. But I will now loudly and publicly FREELY PROCLAIM... I am a bag of dust, saved by His Grace ~ and still (if it were not for the ongoing nature of that Grace, and His love for wrecks like me) worthy of Death (the eternal kind...).**Your own straight-forward, clear (and respectfully presented) NON belief... duly noted. I am, as you probably are well aware, simply speaking honestly as well, from my frame of reference**In that regard, NDES and myself are close kin.And I must say, that is the first time, ever, that it has been even suggested that I was... servile. I am a lot of things (and called a few more), but I do not have the reputation or habit of servility or obsequious....but it is a very good word._____________________________________________Now, for your 'cognitive dissonance' (you are not only a respectful believer in different things from myself, but fairly well read ~ that's not a term you just 'goople' out of thin air).The classic definition of your "cognitive dissonance" is ~ "...concerned with an incompatibility in the relationship between two cognitions."~NEW WORLD ENCYCLOPEDIA~If you stopped there, then an "Ah HAH!" could be said... about every living human being, many times a week.Not much changes when you hear the 'rest of the story' ~~"Contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the mind to acquire or invent new beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, in order to reduce the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions and bring them back into a consistent relationship."~~ibid~Well, when you put it like that, then YES... yes, I do. On a regular basis, about a great many things (from the disparate 'cognitions' of what's in my wallet... and how much that New York Strip costs THIS WEEK!).About God, and His sovereignty?No.Pissed, confused, downright OUTRAGED by what I do... and DO NOT see sometimes?Absolutely.But I did learn, many years ago, the following Truth (paralleled right here on this orb): I am not unique, nor the first to feel this "cognitive dissonance". Every single Marine recruit experiences it during basic (or did, before the days of PC).That eased the angst... a bit.Then the other part of that same Truth (the freeing, maturing, empowering part) was made real, time and again (I'm a SLOW learner, many times).About a month into combat a light comes on in that now MARINE'S head, "I'll be damned! That sawed-off alligator DI was trying to toughen me up... to save my life. I'll be damned!"...been there. Done that.Nothing gutless, cowardly or dishonest about the process (read the rest of the definition and synopsis of identification for this "cognitive dissonance" for background on this sentence: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Cogni... ).Honest wonder, anguish, anger and confusion during the process of learning/becoming/maturing.Honest, thankful transformation of thought, 'beliefs' and character during the doing and living the things learned.In that sense, nossir. No "cognitive dissonance", in the full, classic definitive sense, at all.______________________________________________Lastly, about God's "tyranny".He is sovereign (just as, according to our Constitution, supporting Founding Documents, and private correspondence, notes, speeches and public statements by those who came together and "pledge(d) to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor" to make our Republic a reality... We, THE PEOPLE are sovereign in the final control of our governance by those who were elected to SERVE us).He is sovereign over His creation (those things brought into being by His own work and doing) just as you and I are, as far as finite bags of dust can be, sovereign over the things we toil and labor to obtain, craft, restore (if we did not hold this to be true in reality... then titles, deeds ~ and door locks would be superfluous).I accept that as understandable and fair Fact, for I have proven it true through hard, vain labor on occasion that I cannot add one hair to my old head or one minute to my, or a dear friend's life.You, being a believer in different things (no "God", no "hereafter", no substantive, evidential REASON to have "faith" in any 'power' beyond that which you bring to the table) still must make peace with the inescapable, historic FACT of life here... ending ~ and then get on with LIVING.Same principle....but I damn-sure don't have to fold up, lay down and "let" ANY OTHER bag of dust play "god" over my liberty.Just as we both had to obey our parents, when young and under their roof, rules and whatever level of sustaining 'benevolence' (feeding, clothing, housing, etc.). But I, at least, was under NO compunction to let my siblings play 'parent'.Worked perfectly well then. Still does. Only now, my Father is in Heaven... and my 'brothers and sisters' are welcome to their liberty. But do NOT try to siphon any of mine off.Have a grand evening sir,CM Sackett
Ken, Awesome post! Afa the comment from CM about the "God who let's you live.."
I don't have a hard time understanding the context of it at all. You know, He IS God. Just sayin...
are there any passages in the old testament telling of homosexuals being put to death physically? no. this verse references the death of the soul or in other words eternity in hell. ironic that people will use bible verses when it suits their argument.
I just have to mention- I don't take offense to discussion- I would take offense to hit and run though.
In defense of my "cognitive dissonance"- I believe that everything that I am, that exists, from my soul to the material things are here because of God. I would be right in saying that government does not own me and so it has no power over me. In the end I do believe that my life exists for God and so there would be no tyranny there since I am at His service.
On the other hand- government gives no one their rights and certainly not their life and so government has much less claim over a person than God, even more so than those that do not believe in God.
I think that answers the question you asked and it does give some reasoning for why I or others may believe that what you would call tyranny, I would call service for the creator.
Unfortunately it is hard for many who are caught in homosexuality to exercise that free will... I believe it is a spiritual prison.
Well, thank Jeebus I don't live in Pat Robertson's America so I don't have to worry about what your type of religious fascist would do to me...we'd have a nasty civil war which you'd lose badly before we let you religious loons take over America and I hope that there's enough educated Muslims that will someday overthrow their Theocrat overlords in Islamic countries...
That Old Testament has been replaced with the blood of Jesus, and we have a New Covenant now, with forgiveness. Love conquers all. It never fails.
Ridiculous beliefs like yours is why Secularists are growing faster than every other religion here and in Europe; this is the last gasp of the tyranny of religion. The evangelical christians fighting the pyschotic muslims is fast resulting in the end of both, thankfully. Yes, Christians in this country are more desirable than the muslim fascists because we have a Constitution that keeps y'all in check not to mention a vast populace that doesn't prescribe to your lunacy (and often laughs at you); unfortunately the Muslim countries don't. But long term, it's clearly over for both of you.
* Many who read Nietzsche's first similar proclamation in Die fröhliche Wissenschaft uttered (oddly enough) a form of "AMEN!"... although the full context of the whole "God is dead" quote by the 'madman' is more telling that declarative:
"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"
* In 1961, when Gabriel Vahanian penned the book 'The Death of God', some humanists and secularists thought they had found their "holy grail" (Vahanian was a French THEOLOGIAN). But what he was getting at, was that God "dies" in the hearts and minds of men (in OR out of any 'church')... when people reduce HIM to an artifact, object, name-only-entity:
"The Christian era has bequeathed us the 'death of God,' but not without teaching us a lesson. God is not necessary; that is to say, he cannot be taken for granted. He cannot be used merely as a hypothesis, whether epistemological, scientific, or existential, unless we should draw the degrading conclusion that 'God is reasons.' On the other hand, if we can no longer assume that God is, we may once again realize that he must be. God is not necessary, but he is inevitable. He is wholly other and wholly present. Faith in him, the conversion of our human reality, both culturally and existentially, is the demand he still makes upon us." (Wait Without Idols, p. 46)
NOTE: Have known far too many 'christians' are as thus-shallow in their 'faith'... as you seem patently thick in your UN-belief.
...first cousins of the same hope-less-ness.
_________________________________________________________________
Anyway, I could list dozens of other instances of both far more 'cerebral' exclamations of DIS-belief than your own spittle-dripping retort. But one basic, inescapable, gnawing FACT remains...
...what I "know" NOT to 'exist', I do not think on, consider or spend one atom's resource on 'refuting' (such as pink, winged, good-hearted democraps that poop rivers of C-notes as they fly over... tax free).
No man does.
Yet you went to the trouble of posting, not simply a counterpoint ~ but an empassioned pissertation against the "tyranny of religion".
Well, now that I stop and read that line... "tyranny of religion", if THAT is what you're railing against ~ I'm right there WITH YA, BROTHER!
But as for God, and His existence (or continued 'good health'), we both ~ in our separate 'faiths'... walk by FAITH, not by SIGHT.
Fair enough.
CM Sackett
* Many who read Nietzsche's first similar proclamation in Die fröhliche Wissenschaft uttered (oddly enough) a form of "AMEN!"... although the full context of the whole "God is dead" quote by the 'madman' is more telling that declarative:
"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"
* In 1961, when Gabriel Vahanian penned the book 'The Death of God', some humanists and secularists thought they had found their "holy grail" (Vahanian was a French THEOLOGIAN). But what he was getting at, was that God "dies" in the hearts and minds of men (in OR out of any 'church')... when people reduce HIM to an artifact, object, name-only-entity:
"The Christian era has bequeathed us the 'death of God,' but not without teaching us a lesson. God is not necessary; that is to say, he cannot be taken for granted. He cannot be used merely as a hypothesis, whether epistemological, scientific, or existential, unless we should draw the degrading conclusion that 'God is reasons.' On the other hand, if we can no longer assume that God is, we may once again realize that he must be. God is not necessary, but he is inevitable. He is wholly other and wholly present. Faith in him, the conversion of our human reality, both culturally and existentially, is the demand he still makes upon us." (Wait Without Idols, p. 46)
NOTE: Have known far too many 'christians' are as thus-shallow in their 'faith'... as you seem patently thick in your UN-belief.
...first cousins of the same hope-less-ness.
_________________________________________________________________
Anyway, I could list dozens of other instances of both far more 'cerebral' exclamations of DIS-belief than your own spittle-dripping retort. But one basic, inescapable, gnawing FACT remains...
...what I "know" NOT to 'exist', I do not think on, consider or spend one atom's resource on 'refuting' (such as pink, winged, good-hearted democraps that poop rivers of C-notes as they fly over... tax free).
No man does.
Yet you went to the trouble of posting, not simply a counterpoint ~ but an empassioned pissertation against the "tyranny of religion".
Well, now that I stop and read that line... "tyranny of religion", if THAT is what you're railing against ~ I'm right there WITH YA, BROTHER!
But as for God, and His existence (or continued 'good health'), we both ~ in our separate 'faiths'... walk by FAITH, not by SIGHT.
Fair enough.
CM Sackett
Roland, please refrain from the incendiary stuff. I appreciate your passion and most of your comment was spot on. Just don't want a whole argument to start over a simple comment. Besides, it takes away from you greater point anyway.
-therightscoop
Not all faiths believe in a 'hell'- so just because a person believes in God does not mean that they believe in a hell.
And you're missing the point-
The tyrannical government has power over you- If you are an atheist then you don't believe in God and so God can not have any threat of force over you or me because He does not exist- However, a tyrannical government will have the threat of force over both you and me regardless of our faith or lack of. My free will would be usurped by this tyrannical government whereas God (in my view) allows us to obey or disobey his commandments. In my view, forgiveness is given to those who repent and so even if I believe in a hell, it is not a foregone conclusion.
Apparently you lack an understanding of the Bible and Christianity. First off the Bible is two books, the Old and New Testaments, Christianity is based on the New Testament also the New Covenant. The Old Testament precedes Christianity and is there more for a frame of reference and linage of the faith not as a doctrine thereof. Even though Sackett does not need me to defend him, I and others find him quite coherent, as to "Ad Hominem" You have displayed a well developed talent in its use. I find it a bit of a stretch to equate a minority of self-identified "Christians" whom display a towering ignorance of the teachings of a faith they claim to be followers of, with "modern"(I am using the term in the chronological sense here) nations using a theocratic system of laws (Sharia) to execute publicly those charged with amounts to a morality issue. While Christians may personally label or view it as an "abomination" or a sin before God, the vast majority of Christians also recognize the fact through the teachings of their faith that those cast as "sinners" are subject to God's judgment for their sins but may also be granted forgiveness of those sins by God. In short their sins are between them and God and not for man to pass judgment or sentence upon. Under Sharia these "sins of the flesh" are labeled criminal offenses and those presuming arrogantly to know the mind of God, are usurping God's authority in passing judgment and carrying out sentencing. You are familiar with the lesson taught by Jesus Christ of rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's are you not?
ndes, I'm guessing you aren't a Christian, and for that reason I think your question is fair. The main reason that is no longer in effect is the very same reason that animals are no longer killed and sacrificed for our sins. Jesus came as a fulfillment of the Law and ultimately died for all of our sins on the cross. God (being Jesus) took on the punishment of sin himself.
Therefore, there is no law after his death and resurrection him that requires us
to make any kind of blood sacrifice for our sins. Which is why you don't see this in practice today.
Jesus never taught us to kill our enemies, but to love them. This is one of the primary differences between Islam and Christianity.
liberalism is a mental disorder, they will never respond to logic, its an imposibility; Old Testament - God gives his laws ; New Testament God gives us his son on the cross (the blood of the lamb:the only innocent person to ever live ) so that we may be forgiven our sins, we only have to accept him( his teachings ).-----------------But most liberials just don"t like being told they shouldn't be taking it up the ass!
I'm no bible scholar, but I know that I have free will to do wrong if I choose to-
Under earthly tyranny, would we have the free will to do the same or would the threat of force be an issue?
ndes,
It's not too hard to project that you are a bit ignorant of whats going on here.
Christians DO NOT kill people for homosexuality....do you understand that?
This passage in the Bible is not taken literally, Muslim's DO take it literally...DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?
There is a difference....YOU DON'T SEE IT!
The Bible also contains stories of God's forbearance... like in JOHN 8:1-11 (note especially vs. 11...).
You might also take a gander at ISAIAH 55:6-9 ~ or even this GEM:
"23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?"
~GOD, Ezekiel 18:23-29~
Hypocrisy?
Ask the God who made you, and lets you live... in spite of your duplicit cowardice. You have a history (simply click on your profile, and then click on "Activity") of using snippets from documents ~Constitution, God's Word~ that you clearly have no regard for... for the sole purpose of denigrating, castigating and mocking those who DO find great value in them.
You have no 'original' thoughts nor personal conviction on ANYTHING (again, simply check the history of posts). You are simply a BORG, one of the seething minions of the "Collective".
CM Sackett
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