The Right Scoop
Why has the killings dropped from 2003. Isn't the reduction of guns(that takes time), showing some effect? Why did gun killings almost get halved after 2003? What happened. The only thing I can see is that guns was reduced.
I don’t trust any stats coming out of Europe.
I just read a report on infant mortality. Europe claims to have a much lower rate of infant mortality than the US. Did you know that Europe does not count premature births as live births? If a child is born with a handicap, they don’t count that as a live birth. Oh, and underweight babies are not counted as live births either and neither are babies born to teenage girls. In other words, the only births counted as “live births” in many European countries are full-term, perfectly healthy babies. Is it any wonder their infant mortality rate is much less than the US? If they can be this dishonest about infant mortality, how can we trust them with homicide rates?
I also just tonight read a bunch of articles from law enforcement in England where officials are saying the homicide stats are hogwash. That was the word they used, “hogwash”. Law enforcement officials are saying the numbers are fraudulent to convince the rest of the world that their gun control policy is working. I suppose it depends on what “counts” as a homicide.
It is also interesting to note that England spends millions of dollars a year to support gun lobbying within the UN and they have been actively engaged in trying to pass legislation that would FORCE gun restrictions on the populations of other countries including the US. If they are trying THIS HARD to force gun control on the rest of the world, would it really surprise you to find out they had skewed their statistics?
Yea, well check out what Piers says about the Bible and Constitution: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/piers-morgan-both-the-bible-and-u-s-constitution-are-inherently-flawed-and-need-to-be-amended/
HAHAHAHA notice 50 homicides in 2009 and they go up a bit....HAHAHA US over 11,000 yea they don't know what the heck they are doing...HAHAHA
From below:
'HAHAHAHAHA have a nice day you have been totally exposed. In future think of these words. I taught them to my children and they have used them and are very successful. Think critically don't be a sheep.
Happy New Year.'- Frank
You really don't want to answer the one true question that made you start this entire thread with you, do you? UK gun ban, Frank. UK gun ban.
There are many discussions that people have on this site that explain the culture of violence that permeates this society here in the US and overseas as well. We go over them all the time. You were never interested in knowing it, that's why I refrained from telling you, as it is useless to discuss with a sophomore who refuses to discuss.
You have one agenda, but that agenda got tripped up when you failed to answer the one question that destroys your argument. Now you are trying to hide from that argument and that question.
Interesting. It says a lot about you, Frank. However, just for your New Year's pleasure, I will post it here and then I will post with you no further. I will not be interested in your responses, as I already know what they will be. You, of course, will attempt many times to bait me, taunt me, and deride me (all showing your level of intelligence), but it never gets you around the point that you can't answer, Frank. The UK gun ban, Frank. The UK gun ban.
We have a culture of violence in the world. It is prominent in our large cities, of which the US has the vast majority. All other 'first world' countries (as you call them) have the same problem, but they have fewer metropolitan centers. Guns are indeed the weapon of choice for the criminal component of these cities, but banning guns from law-abiding citizens neither stops the crime nor deters the criminals from getting them. There are many ways to get them and they will always get them.
In Europe, after the gun bans, gun deaths did not go down, but other forms of crime increased dramatically, mainly because the law-abiding citizens were no longer able to defend themselves (in fact, in England, it is against the law for them to carry any form of defense - brilliant). Even with the gun bans, guns are prominent in crimes. The problem is not in the weapon, but rather in the culture. It's on our TVs, in our movies, and saturated in our kids video games.
For one thing, stop letting repeat criminals out of prison. Stop putting them back on the street. That is where a majority of crime lies. Utilize the laws we already have and stick to them. For another thing, we must rid ourselves of gun-free zones. They are only easy-kill zones. In the last 50 years all mass murders with over 4 victims, save one (The Gabby Giffords crime), were committed in gun-free zones. Period. Guns are vital. Both Switzerland and Israel realize this and have trained their people accordingly. People need to be well-armed but also well-trained. That is essential to gun ownership. It changes the viewpoint of the person when they learn gun responsibility.
We need a return to personal responsibility and a return to better moral values that our public schools are no longer teaching. It's an entitlement society and one in which anything goes and no one is responsible for their own actions. This is a long term solution and one I'm not sure will be accomplished through our corrupt education system. That's why many of us are homeschooling our kids and teaching them the true values of life at an early age (that includes gun safety and gun knowledge).
As the liberal centers of our country get worse and worse (ie, Chicago, Boston, DC, you name it), the culture of violence will necessarily skyrocket. Where I live is fairly tame, but we are headed for an economic collapse in this country the magnitude of which no one has ever seen before. Just because my area is safe, doesn't mean the infection won't spread to me. That is a common deadly mistake to make (you have already stated that you made that mistake even though you don't realize it). I'm personally ready for it, along with many, many of my friends. We will survive and start it all over again, hopefully with a better handle on it.
The rest? Well it's going to be a bit of chaos for them and they can only hope someone like me and my friends are there to protect them, as they may well be defenseless without guns and without the knowledge of how to survive on your own. Just my point of view.
From below:
'OK Nukeboy, where is your answer I've given you plenty of times. I notice you like asking the questions but you are completely incapable of answering for your indefenceable postion.' - Frank
Well, Frank, I have a post ready to go. But I was waiting to see your reply, as you have been obnoxious and derisive to everybody on this site so far. It looked like you might be turning around with your last couple of statements, which were semi-curteous, but I see it was just a ploy to get another response you can attempt to play with. So I will save the reply for when you gain some knowledge of the subject first.
Quite frankly, I don't care whether you learn or not. I can post the response and watch you flail while you mock and deride every line, but that would require that I respond again, which I'm not interested in doing. Didn't you notice that no one wanted to reply to your comments in the most recent thread:
http://www.therightscoop.com/the-untold-story-of-gun-confiscation-after-hurricane-katrina/
Understand that there is a common knowledge on this site that will totally ignore the inane such as yourself. Try to realize that. You haven't 'given me plenty of times'. You haven't given anyone anything but laughter. Please do yourself a favor and go try to learn something, then come back. Your taunting for simple, silly sophomoric debating doesn't affect anyone here. One would have thought you would have learned that by now.
Have a nice day, Frank.
HAHAHAHA..Here I can compress your long winded non answer....I don't know but it is not the guns HAHAHAHA
Talk about providing humour....you can't think, you can't answer the question and I knew you couldn't because guns is the answer.
Nukeman, why are you mad at me and call me names. You post an article trying to show that the UK has a huge crime problem even with gun control.
All I do is point out to you that by way of comparison there numbers are fantastic and really are an argument for gun control and the I show you how the US numbers stack up against their's and in one day more Americans are killed in gun related crime then are killed in the UK in a year.
I simply point out that the comparison is somewhat laughable. Then as usual you go off. This is a debate you can't win the US is a far more dangerous and deadly culture and the most significant reason for this is very lax gun control.
You have no point Frank. People would be 'thrilled' if there were no death in the world. I would not be thrilled if having no gun deaths, meant losing our freedom and enslavement. Try to do a little reading. You throw out all viable information surrounding a culture of crime to focus on gun deaths alone. In doing so, you come to erroneous assumptions and conclusions and demand that we accept that. Wake up.
No matter what idiocy you post next, this is my last post on this thread. Talking to someone who has no point is pointless in itself, as humorous as it has been. You can't even keep a consistent thought here.
You have no point Frank. People would be 'thrilled' if there were no death in the world. I would not be thrilled if having no gun deaths, meant losing our freedom and enslavement. Try to do a little reading. You throw out all viable information surrounding a culture of crime to focus on gun deaths alone. In doing so, you come to erroneous assumptions and conclusions and demand that we accept that. Wake up.
No matter what idiocy you post next, this is my last post on this thread. Talking to someone who has no point is pointless in itself, as humorous as it has been. You can't even keep a consistent thought here.
Nukeman you as an American would be jumping for joy if you only had 28 gun crimes a day. Not deaths crimes.
In the US:
48,676 were intentionally shot who survived or 133 people a day
12,632 were killed in criminal firearm deaths or 34 people died every day
Do you realize Americans in gun related crime kill more people in one day, then the UK people kill in an entire year.
You have got to be kidding me, this comparisons a joke by anyone's standard.
.
Typically, there are approximately 30,000 US deaths due to firearms in the US each year.
In 2007 according to the Centers for Disease Control Faststats and the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control WIQARS Leading Causes of Nonfatal Injury Reports:
48,676 people were intentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
18,610 people were unintentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
17,352 suicides (intentionally shot themselves who died) (CDC)
12,632 criminal firearm deaths (killed in a crime by guns) (CDC)
This does not include deaths of people intentionally or unintentionally shot for legal reasons (Like the police shooting a suspect).
The above total is 97270 people shot in the US in 2007. About a third (29984) died, and it is likely that the total number of Americans shot is at least 100,000 given that all types of gunshot injuries/deaths are not included.
In the US, every day during 2007, about 266 Americans were shot. Every day, a third of them (82 daily) died.
Nukeman you as an American would be jumping for joy if you only had 28 gun crimes a day. Not deaths crimes.
In the US:
48,676 were intentionally shot who survived or 133 people a day
12,632 were killed in criminal firearm deaths or 34 people died every day
Do you realize Americans in gun related crime kill more people in one day, then the UK people kill in an entire year.
You have got to be kidding me, this comparisons a joke by anyone's standard.
.
Typically, there are approximately 30,000 US deaths due to firearms in the US each year.
In 2007 according to the Centers for Disease Control Faststats and the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control WIQARS Leading Causes of Nonfatal Injury Reports:
48,676 people were intentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
18,610 people were unintentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
17,352 suicides (intentionally shot themselves who died) (CDC)
12,632 criminal firearm deaths (killed in a crime by guns) (CDC)
This does not include deaths of people intentionally or unintentionally shot for legal reasons (Like the police shooting a suspect).
The above total is 97270 people shot in the US in 2007. About a third (29984) died, and it is likely that the total number of Americans shot is at least 100,000 given that all types of gunshot injuries/deaths are not included.
In the US, every day during 2007, about 266 Americans were shot. Every day, a third of them (82 daily) died.
You really don't get it, do you Frank. People keep trying to tell you and all you can spew is one point over and over and over again. In 2008, there were 28 gun crimes per day in England and Wales (not much of a gun control, I'd say). Scotland has a higher crime rate than the US (not a goal to seek, either). People over there are screaming for a means to defend themselves against tyranny and all you can do is say, "I don't believe it - it's not true". Well it's too bad you don't want to believe reality, but that is not a good argument.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28-gun-crimes-committed-in-UK-every-day.html
(By the way, when were the gun deaths in the UK ever at 14? You can look at the chart above alone to see that is false. You might want to start double checking your sources. They are feeding you a line of crap and you are buying it because that's what you want to see).
Perhaps the gun deaths are low because the criminals have no one to oppose them, so they don't have to kill anyone. Is that the culture you were looking for - one in which the criminals can do whatever they want unopposed?
I'd rather have a culture that is well-armed and well-trained and able to kill the perpetrator rather than one that is held as slaves to the criminal component. We are a free society here. It doesn't look like it's so free over there.
BTW, try to have a debate with people, Frank. Very few people even respond to you simply because you only spew nonsense without discussing all the viable facts that are presented to you. We're tired of trying to teach you. Perhaps, you are used to being promoted to the next class without ever learning, but around here it doesn't work. You have to earn your believability.
Edit: BTW, Frank, you do realize that your source is a survey, right? I know how much you've talked about surveys. This same survey has 183,000 people per 100,000 in the UK with drug crimes. No culture of crime there, huh? (you need to search better sources - you do know what a search is don't you?)
So there are people opposed I am shocked, here explain this.
Frank888121 hours agoin reply to Nukeman60
Gun related homicides Ger 269, Cz. Rep. 181, Can 144, Pol 111, Spain 97, Port 90, Switz 68, Aus 59, Swed 58, Jpn 47, Austria 25, UK 14, Den 14, Irl 12, N.Z 10, Lux 0 Iceland 0
17 countries more population then US and stricter gun control 998 gun related homicides
United States of America 9369 gun related homicides. Ten times higher then all 17 countries combined.
HAHAHAHAHA have a nice day you have been totally exposed. In future think of these words. I taught them to my children and they have used them and are very successful. Think critically don't be a sheep.
Happy New Year.
Oh, you mean that link has a hidden part that explains why the gun ban of 1997 in the UK was the reason for gun deaths being so low? I guess I missed that.
AAAAhhhh no it is not is english you first language. Now stop trying to avoid the question. Answer please.
(shakes head sadly) Not again, Frank. That was the wrong link. I'm sure you made a mistake, but I'll give you another chance.
Gun related homicides Ger 269, Cz. Rep. 181, Can 144, Pol 111, Spain 97, Port 90, Switz 68, Aus 59, Swed 58, Jpn 47, Austria 25, UK 14, Den 14, Irl 12, N.Z 10, Lux 0 Iceland 0
17 countries more population then US and stricter gun control 998 gun related homicides
United States of America 9369 gun related homicides. Ten times higher then all 17 countries combined.
Ok I ask again please answer, if it is not the proliferation of guns in the US and doesn't have anything to do with gun control. Then what is it, why do you folks keep shooting each other.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms
Once again, distraction. We are not going to go over all the posts that we had over the last 2 weeks. (is that the only way you get a conversation with anyone?) Your point was that the UK gun ban was the reason for the low death rate in your 'first world' countries. That was false and it has always been false. Everything else has been a distraction with you.
You try to get someone to reply, then you counter with another point. I told you I know why the crime violence is high in the US (and it's also high in the UK, with Scotland being higher than the US), but your key point was that it was the gun ban in the UK that was the difference. Try to stick with it or give it up.
You might want to go back and reread your posts (you do know how to do that, right?). I'm still waiting for the link, Frank. Ask mommy, if you have to, I don't care. Get all the help you can and need. It's alright.
HAHAHAHA can't answer it eh, you say the reason isn't guns or gun control as to why Americans kill each other at an alarming rate. Have the highest gun related homicides and gun related deaths.
Fine if that is true then why do you people keep killing each other that far outstrips other first world nations?
Answer...PLEASE
Oh, Frank, you're back to square one (what's it been - 2 weeks now). You need to show the link that explains how the UK gun ban of 1997 turned a 60/year gun death into a 100/year gun death and then, as you said, dramatically dropped it 14 years later to an amazingly low 60/year. When you do that, I will post the real reasons for the culture of violence, both here and overseas.
The increase in gun crime on the early 2000's was directly related to immigration - particularly from Eastern Europe.
I remember being rather shocked at Albanians trying to sell AK47's on Swaffham market.
You are the one wasting people's time. You chortle like a loon, admit you don't understand the issues, admit you don't have any solution, but apparently you are favour undermining the Bill of Rates.
OK Nukeman lets just say you are right about the UK, I don't believe it but let us just say you are.
Can you then tell me why the US has the highest per capita total of gun related deaths as compared to all the other first world nations with gun control by a country mile.
If it isn't the proliferation of guns then what is it.
OK Nukeboy, where is your answer I've given you plenty of times. I notice you like asking the questions but you are completely incapable of answering for your indefenceable postion.
"Gun related" is the operative phrase here. Of course, if someone breaks into my home with a knife, and I have no gun, I am still going to be dead, aren't I? Do you really think it matters to me if I'm dead from a knife or a gun? Yes, fewer guns probably do equate to fewer “gun-related” deaths. That’s because the victims are all sitting ducks and the killers don’t need a gun to get the job done.
Many serial killers have used strangulation as a means of killing. A woman, without a gun, is pretty much defenseless against a man. I'm 5’3 and weigh 120 lbs. How much of a chance do you think I would have of defending myself against a 180 lb. man if I had no gun? I can tell you, zilch.
From below:
'Can you then tell me why the US has the highest per capita total of gun related deaths as compared to all the other first world nations with gun control by a country mile.' - Frank
Yes, Frank, I can. You didn't say please, though.
OK Nukeman lets just say you are right about the UK, I don't believe it but let us just say you are.
Can you then tell me why the US has the highest per capita total of gun related deaths as compared to all the other first world nations with gun control by a country mile.
If it isn't the proliferation of guns then what is it.
You will never learn, Frank. We're trying to teach you how to be a conservative, but you just keep bucking the pain. Oh, well. I tried and that's all one can do before one has to put the horse down for good. Sorry.
You entire argument is gun deaths in the UK are a fraction of the US gun deaths specifically because of the gun ban in the UK. You were very specific about that. You didn't want to talk about gun crime, other crime or anything but raw gun death numbers, because you thought that was foolproof.
Looking at the chart above, gun deaths were an average of 60/year through the 90s. I'll give you that when the ban happened all other crime skyrocketed, as we all told you it will here, including gun deaths (up to 100/year in 2002). They are presently at 60/year as of 2011 - obviously a dramatic decrease from the early 90s, no? NO!
Now you want to say that gun deaths are declining from 2004 because of the gun ban in 1997? You are floundering again and attempting to divert the main argument you started with. There are many causes to the high crime culture that we have here in the US, and many people wanted to discuss that with you. But you chose to stick to your one trick pony that didn't exist. So live with it.
Please explain, using links, why the gun deaths in the UK have remained at about the same level for the last 2 decades (given that they skyrocketed between 1997 and 2004 and then started to come back down to earlier levels). There definitely is a reason why it's coming down (I already told you what that was), but it sure wasn't the gun ban of 1997.
I need links Frank.
Before you start typing out more crap read this too, you are wrong again.
Criminologist Peter Squires said the real picture shows a slight but significant decline in the use of firearms since Dunblane. The figures don't tell the whole story, he said, but "the murder rate has fallen and all the indicators are moving in the right direction."
OK Nukboy here you go they went up in the short term but significantly declined, I have been trying to tell you that for 3 DAYS.
Now about every other country being much much much safer what do you have to say. Oh I got it do a survey, get your University to sponser it, remember the University of we don't grant degrees.
I know it is useless but you kill way more people with guns admit it.
According to bare statistics, the ban initially appeared to have little impact, as the number of crimes involving guns in England and Wales rose heavily during the late 1990s to peak at 24,094 offenses in 2003/04.
Since then the number has fallen in each year. In 2010/11 there were 11,227 offenses, 53% below the peak number, according to the official crime figures. Crimes involving handguns also fell 44% -- from 5,549 in 2002/03 to 3,105 -- in 2010/11.
Ha, That's your answer? Where's the link to prove it? Come on, Frankie, you can do better than that. We banned guns cause it would have been higher if we didn't? Ha.
Frank, your whole point in saying ban guns was because the UK banned them and that was the difference. Those were your words. Are you now backing down from them? Pretty petty to say we are all balled down with minor details when you can't even come up with one link to prove your whole basis of whining.
Come on, Frank. You gotta do some work here. You're slipping and the middle school debate club is going to give you a bad grade.
How do you know it would not have been higher, every first world nation has tougher gun control laws then the US and every nation has far lower gun related homicides and deaths.
Explain that, no more blather explain how Americans shoot hemselves at 3,4,5...10 times higher rate then any of them. Are you that thick explain to me why that is the case.
You guys are all the same you get all balled down in such minor detail, tell me why you people keep frikken killing each other with guns and why guns aren't a problem.
Frank, you are indeed persistent. There are a thousand stats against you, but put them all aside. Look only at the one stat that you put forth. You claim that the gun ban in 1997 in the UK is the reason for the low gun deaths there compared to the US. You ignore completely the fact that the gun death total was no lower after the gun ban than it was before. In fact, it skyrocketed for many years.
That is a simple fact that you cannot disprove no matter how many unrelated facts you want people to show you so you can laugh at them. Laugh all you want. The onus is on you to prove your argument and after 2 full weeks of playing around, you have not done that.
And btw, ignoring it is not disproving it. Calling it false is not disproving it. Show me a link that disproves it. I realize you will come back with your '2009, 18 deaths' story, but that doesn't disprove what I said. Everything else you attempt is just a distraction.
Try facing reality, because until you face the facts, you're just blathering.
So don't pick the UK, pick any first world nation. They all have far more restrctive gun control legislation and every one has far less violent gun crime. So you choose I will give you the numbers.
Further don't waste my time telling me what the answer doesn't have to do with. Tell me what the reason is they have so much gun related murder becauae we could do this all day ( I know it doesn't have to do with the price of eggs ).
Finally if you can be so sure it doesn't have anything to do with guns tell me why, because they are sure doing a lot of killing if they have nothing to do with it.
Sorry, you were to quick off the mark, they count all the votes where I live too. Canada to smart by half.
I know the answer has nothing to do with guns. And it doesn't have much to do with crime.
Though what intrigues me is why you think that the murder rate will fall because of restricting guns, when the facts show that it has not changed in Britain - guns or no guns (though quite why Britain is used as a comparison is frankly silly - for one thing in Britain we actually count the votes cast in an election before we declare the winner)
I'm sorry, I really don't have an answer for that. Crime I suppose but it seems so much larger then that. Why, what do you think?
I have asked you why so many people in America feel the need to kill others, and you are completely unwilling to address that issue.
The gun homicides in UK in 2009 were 18 in US over 11,000 and 31,000 gun related deaths what is to debate.
It all seems so silly trying to compare.
It's not a matter of statistics. Ten years ago your average bobby looked like a bobby, now they look like robocop, with tasers and peppersprays, and body armour. The reason they give is because of gun violence.
Add to this the increased number of bobby's with heckler and koch who casually walk the street - there was a time when this would have been shocking, but people appear to just think it normal now. And the irony is that there is an ongoing debate about whether the police should be armed, when in reality they are already - just not officially.
I notice you do not address why in the US 11,000 people felt the desire to kill someone when only 600 did in Britain, both before and after the gun ban. That is the real issue. And because it is a complex social issue relating to how social policy and governance actually works, it is not addressed in this debate.
Not saying what you say isn't true but you are going to have to link me to your evidence I think you are wrong. I have never read any of those stats.
The graph shows no change in the total number. So I would question your claim of effectiveness. The question you overlook is why @600 people felt murderous in Britain, compared to @11,000 in the US.
I would also question your perception of how gun control works in the UK. Since guns were banned/restricted, they have become far more widespread - both legal and illegal - in society.
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