This is an article written by Walid Shoebat back in 2009 that defends his views – that Islam is the end times beast – against challengers who continually assert the more modern Western view of European model. The article is based on three challenges that he makes to prove that his view isn’t a radical view, but is supported by traditional views on Bible prophecy as well as scripture itself.

I found it to be a great read and thought I’d share it with you.

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THE DEBATE OVER ANTICHRIST
By Walid Shoebat

THE THREE CHALLENGES
Does the beast of Revelation involve Middle Eastern Muslim nations, is it exclusively European, or is it both? Some say the notion that Islam could play a prominent role in the coming revival of the Roman Empire is impossible, unorthodox, untraditional, the work of ‘Lone Ranger’ type interpretation, and even revisionist..1

The majority of American evangelicals believe that the Antichrist system must be exclusively European, yet this view is changing after the last few years with the rise of Islam.

So, could Islam play a role in this end-times scenario? You might think to yourself—so what? Why should we care? Well, why then did the Almighty give us Daniel and Revelations? Even better still — why did God give us all the Messianic prophesies regarding Jesus’ first coming? Careless followers that missed these ended up without salvation, regardless of whether they sacrificed lambs in the Temple or obeyed the law—when it comes to the issue of Messiah, they missed the most crucial event in history. All for not paying close attention to Bible Prophecy. And what about the second coming? Are we to be careless with respect to the evidence presented in the Bible? I am not saying that you could lose your salvation, but if you end up on the side of Antichrist, you never had salvation in the first place.

Yet today, the debate is brewing—what about the threat of Islam? Did the Bible warn us about it? Are we supposed to keep our focus exclusively on Europe?

To shed light on the implications of such detailed evidence (which spawned countless challenges and questions) I decided to write God’s War on Terror regarding Islam’s involvement in end-times. Consequently, I get challenges daily, not only by Muslims that want me dead but also from Christians who are dogmatic about their views. Ironically, we have no record of any Christian minister killed for exposing the E.U. as the work of Satan, yet we have millions who gave their lives for standing up to Islam. So please allow me to alleviate some pressure and present you with only three challenges:

 

CHALLENGE 1: Did traditional Prophecy scholars teach that Europe is exclusively the Antichrist kingdom?

You might be shocked to know that the highest caliber commentators of old did not believe that Europe was the exclusive player in the End-Times. A revival of a Roman Empire never meant a revival of a European Empire.

Many of our best western scholars on Bible prophecy believed that Islam would be a major player and will revive in the end of days as part of this end-time beast. John Wesley interpreted the Iron in Daniel 2 as Islam (Works, 1841). Hilaire Belloc foresaw Islam‘s rise.2 Gregory Palamus of Thessalonica interpreted the martyrdom of Christians during the Great Tribulation to come from Islam. Josiah Litch interpreted Revelation as the ushering in of Islam.3 He even described the magnitude of Islam’s role being Antichrist to the extent of calling it the “general agreement among Christians, especially protestant commentators.”

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-368 A.D) in his Divine Institutes believed that Antichrist proceeds forth from the region of ancient Syria4, which today extends from Syria well into portions of Asia Minor (Turkey). Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (560-638) and Maximus the Confessor (580-662) identified Islam with Antichrist and lived through Islam’s invasion of Jerusalem. Maximus was also an important theologian and scholar of the early Church who helped defeat the Monothelite heresy referred to the Muslim invasions as “announcing the advent of the Antichrist.” John of Damascus (676-749) was another very important figure in the early church. In his famous book, Against Heresies, he identified Islam as the forerunner to the Antichrist. Eulogius, Paul Alvarus and the Martyrs of Cordova (9th century) believed Muhammad to be a false prophet and the precursor to the Antichrist.5 Many are not aware that while Martin Luther, father of the Protestant Reformation, believed that the Papacy played the role of the spiritual harlot, he also believed that the Muslims were the Kingdom of Antichrist.6

John Calvin interpreted Daniel 2′s eastern leg [of the statue] as the Eastern-Roman Islamic Empire and that Daniel 11:37 applied to the Muslims.7 Even Jonathan Edwards the great American congregational preacher, revivalist, and president of Princeton University, like Luther and Calvin, saw Islam as one of the premiere elements of the Antichrist Kingdom.8 Calvin even interpreted Islam’s fall at the sound of the great trumpet.9 Islam falling at the sound of the great trumpet even carries Islam into the Great Tribulation and not as many of our contemporary prophecy analysts who allege that Islam must be removed prior to Christ coming.

Even Sir Robert Anderson, perhaps one of the best prophecy experts who unlocked the seventy weeks of Daniel, in his remarkable book The Coming Prince, insists to focus on the Levant (Eastern) parts rather than the Adriatic (West).10

Countless other Bible commentators warned about Islam being the kingdom of Antichrist—Selnecker, Nigrinus, Chytraeus, Bullinger, Foxe, Napier, Pareus, John Cotton, Thomas Parker, Increase Mather, Cotton Mather, and George Stanley Faber.11

Also added to the list is Rev. Professor Dr. Francis Nigel Lee who sums up the traditional view in his excellent work Islam in the Bible: “from the seventh century onward – [the two legs] would degenerate respectively into the Papacy (which progressively took over the West) and Islam (which progressively took over the East.” (p. 5)

Making Europe the exclusive body of Antichrist kingdom is not the orthodox or even the traditional view. Some insist that Antichrist is Italian since he comes from the Roman Empire, but Roman does not strictly mean Italian, just as Alexander the Great was Grecian, this does not mean Athenian—he was from Macedonia. Antiochus Epiphanies, another biblical prediction was Syrian not Athenian or Cypriot. Why then, when it comes to Antichrist, insist on an Italian ignoring the whole empire. Even Jesus insisted that Pergamum in Revelation 2:12-13, was the seat of Satan and not the gymnastically altered interpretation for an archeological relic that sits in Berlin.

While contemporary prophesy analysts trumpet the idea that the fourth composite of Daniel 2 iron metal as strictly European, traditionalist views differ. Dr. Matthew Henry comments: “Who is this enemy—whose rise, reign and ruin are here foretold? Interpreters are not in agreement. Some will have the Fourth Kingdom to be that of the Seleucidae and the ‘little horn’ to be Antiochus…. Others will have the Fourth Kingdom to be that of the Romans, and the ‘little horn’ to be Julius Caesar and the succeeding emperors, as Calvin says. The Antichrist, the Papal Kingdom, says Mr. Joseph Mede.

Others make the ‘little horn’ to be the Turkish Empire [Muslim]; so Luther, Vatablus, and others. Now I cannot prove either side to be in the wrong. Therefore, since prophecies sometimes have many fulfillments, we ought to give Scripture its full latitude (in this as in many other controversies)—I am willing to allow that they are both in the right.”12

NORTH AFRICA
Most students of prophecy that ascribe to a revival of the Roman Empire ignore that North Africa (Phut) encompasses five Muslim nations historically part of the western wing of the Roman Empire, and already mentioned literally in several end-times references. In order for the exclusively European model to fit, the whole of this Muslim region must be irrelevant. So what part of the Roman pie do we slice off and what parts do we include?

CONTEMPORARY VS TRADITIONAL
So what happened? Why do we have such a variation between contemporary versus traditional? The problem began in 1981 when Greece joined as the tenth nation in the European Union and many sounded a false alarm that announced they unlocked the mystery and have the fulfillment of Revelation 17, all with its ten horns, to later be embarrassed when the European Union mushroomed into twenty some nations.

Instead of pulling back their books, these analysts ran back to the drawing board, not to confess their error, but to insist that the E.U. model must shrink to only ten.. They still chose to finagle with the theory. Some, like Arnold Fruchtenbaum, realized that this was wrong: “It has become common today to refer to the ten kingdoms as being in Europe only, especially the Former Common Market, now the European Union. But the text does not allow for this kind of interpretation. At the very best, the European Union might become one of the ten, but it could hardly become all of the ten.”13

According to Fruchtenbaum, the European model comprises only one tenth, a mere slice of the whole pie. Jamieson Fausset & Brown insist that, “the ten toes are not upon the one foot (the west), as these interpretations require, but on the two (east and west) together, so that any theory which makes the ten kingdoms belong to the west alone must err.”

 

CHALLENGE 2: Besides the argument on whether Magog is Russia, can anyone cite any literal reference to a nation that God destroys in the End-Times that is not Muslim?

Only if you ponder this question can you grasp its magnitude. On one occasion during a lecture to a group of prominent Bible prophecy teachers in the Pre-Trib Prophecy Conference in Dallas, I asked this question and no one raised a hand to answer.

In frustration, I pointed to Dr. Randall Price, a known Prophecy teacher and asked him to respond, in which he pointed that when it comes to literal references there are none. Grant Jeffrey, another known author, once attempted to respond with Cush, not realizing that biblical Cush (a reference sometimes translated as Ethiopia) is defined in the Unger Bible Dictionary as a landmass south of Egypt. Today this will be Sudan and Somalia.

Grant Jeffrey chose one of the most fundamentalist Muslim nations as a response to find non-Muslim nations in end-times. David Reagan of the Lion and Lamb Ministries with frustration pointed to Mystery Babylon14 ignoring that the crucial word in that question is “literal”. If Babylon is a response to cite any literal reference for a non-Muslim nation that God destroys, this would still support my view— Mystery Babylon is an allegoric reference.

 

CHALLENGE 3: In every portrayal of Christ’s return to the earth, is He not fighting a nation that today is Muslim?

The significance of this question is as follows —scholars are unanimous, that Christ’s second coming must happen after Antichrist appears on the scene. Christ’s mission will be to destroy Antichrist and establish His Millennium kingdom. The European Union model has the Muslim hordes destroyed before the Tribulation period. Yet the text shows that Messiah Himself deals with Muslim nations.

The next prophecy conference you attend ask, “Is Jesus on earth on the Day of the Lord?” Ezekiel tells us of that day, “For the day is near, even the Day of the Lord is near” (Ezekiel 30:3). Yet this is when “Cush and Phut, Lydia [Turkey] and all Arabia, Libya and the people of the covenant land will fall by the sword along with Egypt” (Ezekiel 30:5). Other prophesies show these nations are cast into Hell, including Asshur – “Iraq – Syria”, (Ezekiel 32:22-23) Elam – “Iran” (Ezekiel 32:24-25) Meshech & Tubal “Asia minor—Turkey” (Ezekiel 32:26) – Edom – “Arabia” (Ezekiel 32:29). These nations are punished for striking terror against Israel and the believers (Ezekiel 32:22-24 & 27).

Perhaps sharing a few from the volume of hundreds of prophecies of Jesus’ wars during the Great Tribulation can shed more light on the matter: “See Jehovah rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them” (Isaiah 19). Does this remind you of the song “behold He comes riding on the clouds”? Yet rarely are we told that Jesus here is fighting Egypt—a Muslim nation.

Even in Christ’s judgment of the nations (Joel 3) He is fighting Muslim entities. “Now what have you against me, O Tyre and Sidon [Lebanon] and all you regions of Philistia [Gaza]” (Joel 3:4) It couldn’t be more clear! It was as if Jesus Himself was speaking directly to Hezbollah (Tyre and Sidon) and Hamas (Philistia), challenging them regarding their bloodlust against the Jewish people. Their fight against Israel is in reality a declaration of war on the King Himself.

In Isaiah 25:9-10 at the time of the Lord’s return, we have Christ fighting Moab “And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation. For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under Him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.” (Isaiah 25:9-10).

Even in Isaiah 63, scholars unanimously agree that He fights Edom (Arabia).
Are the Muslim nations in prophecy destroyed prior to the Christ’s coming? Will the Antichrist then establish his European rule? Can anyone find a verse in the Bible in which Christ fights and nations are literally mentioned which are not Muslim?

This is why many who exclusively see Europe as Antichrist insist on removing Islam from the scene prior to the coming of Christ. Since the Muslims still exist on earth upon the Lord’s return fighting against Him, their whole premise of an exclusively European Antichrist falls apart.

 

REFERENCES
1 Lamplighter Newsletter, David Reagan, January 2009 edition.
2 The Great Heresies, chapter 4 March, 1936, page 127-128
3 Hosiah Litch, The Three Woe Trumpets, Fall of The Ottoman Empire, August 11, 1840
4 Divine Institutes, 7:17
5 Paul Alvarus, Memoriale sanctorum 2.4
6 Martin Luther, Tischreden, Weimer ed., 1, No. 330
7 Calvin On Islam Revelation Prof. Dr. Francis Nigel Lee, Lamp Trimmers El Paso, 2000
8 Jonathan Edwards, The Fall of Antichrist, Part VII, page 395, New York, Published by S. Converse 1829
9 Jonathan Edwards, The Fall of Antichrist, Part VII, page 399, New York, Published by S. Converse 1829
10 The Coming Prince, Page 273
11 Froom: op. cit., II pp. 323f, 325f, 331, 340f, 412f, 458 & 518f and also III pp. 40f, 74f, 125-31, 149, 183, 240f, &352f.
12 M. Henry: A Commentary on the Holy Bible, with Practical Remarks andObservations, London: Marshall Bros. Ltd., n.d., IV:1270f.
13 Fruchtenbaum, Footsteps of the Messiah, page 36
14 Lamplighter Newsletter, David Reagan, January 2009 edition.

 

 

 




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288 comments
Discuss7
Discuss7

Walid has good points. Ishmael the son of Abraham always wanted to be the people blessed by Abraham in replacement Isaac. Naturally, his descendents are the arab people and the arabs of today sound like just Ishmael's mother Hagar; to take the blessing in the stead of Isaac. Well, it did not happen. Thank God. Jealousy is the base for the antisemitic plan of satan and the arab islamic brotherhood.

Michael Lemons
Michael Lemons

Daniel 8 and 11, speaks of the king of the north(Grecia) who in the end of years will join himself with the daughter(religion) of the king of the south(Persia), Iran is the only thing standing in the way, but we have been in talks with them. If you google a map of the Persian empire you will see it has just about been reformed. Isaiah 14 speaks of the Assyrian empire which is almost the same countries as the old Persian empire. only thing standing in the way is Syria, but the Obama administration is in the process of assuring the rise of the muslim brotherhood there as well. All the other countries are currently under US control. Egypt, Lybia, Cush, Iraq, Jordan, Pakistan, Afghanistan. Meshech and Tubal is Turkey and we just sent Patriot missles there through NATO(North Atlantic Treaty Organization). Obama is Gog ie. the Assyrian, ie. Appollyon, ie Abbadon. As for a revived Roman empire coming out of Europe, where did the the Citizens of the United States migrate from???? American history class I took, said Europe.

Much Love

Michael

Nick Beckwith
Nick Beckwith

I can save you all a lot of time and confusion. There will be no beast. That is because that prophecy referred to Nero Caesar. It ALREADY HAPPENED. FULFILLED. PAST. I am amazed that so many Christians ignore the Bible's numerous cues: "THIS generation shall not pass away until ALL these things are accomplished", "There are some STANDING HERE who shall NOT TASTE DEATH until...", Revelation is bookended with "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him show to his servants the things that must SOON take place." and "Surely I am coming SOON". Low information Christians read these and think, "Oh, SOON! It's coming SOON!" Update: these things were written 2,000 years ago. Soon to THEM, not you. The standard response is, "Yeah, but with God 1 day is as a thousand years and vicey-versey!" That is an abuse of that verse. In context it simply meant that God was no less likely to keep his promises if much time has passed. It didn't give god liberty to speak deceptively. And it doesn't magically make "soon" mean thousands of years. And certainly not "some of you people here, right now, the ones I'm talking to, yes, you, some of YOU will not yet be dead when it happens" mean thousands of years after they are dead. Or that he was mystically speaking through the centuries to the believers of today. Which generation was to know that they were the ones he was "really" speaking to? This is the kind of sloppy exegesis that dispensationalism has forced people to engage in. People think this is what Christians have always believed. It's NOT! Dispensationalism is only a couple of decades old, and unfortunately widely propagated through Ryrie and Scofield study bibles. It is one of the greatest errors in the church today, based on 3 WRONG assumptions: 1. That Israel and the church are entirely distinct with distinct destinies (the New Testament teaches that the church is the fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy), 2. That there will be a pre-tribulation rapture (hint: the tribulation is also a 1st century event - DONE), and 3. The TERRIBLE claim of a "literal" hermeneutic, that forces all kinds of figurative and symbolic passages to be taken in an artificially literal way, and which is not applied consistently even by dispensationalists (anyone think Jesus is literally a door, with hinges and what-not?). Listen, it is not blessed to insist Jews will be given the literal land of Israel. It was a type, a foreshadowing, of the fact that God would give his people the WHOLE WORLD! That's BETTER than a dusty middle-eastern piece of property! It is not a good thing to go backward and reinstitute animal sacrifice - Christ has come, and his sacrifice is effective where those could never be. The fulfillment is INFINITELY better than the type. But people are still hoping for the imperfect precursors.

Moreno
Moreno

What...huh? So by that 'logic', because the Bible was written 2,000 years ago, none of it applies now. The first coming of Christ was his birth. Are you implying he came back a second time since then?

There were eight beast empires referred to in Naebakanezer's dream. Seven of those have past. Nazi Germany being the last. There's one more remaining. But whatever helps you sleep better at night.

Poncho4ever
Poncho4ever

Oh yeah, NOW I remember that Bible verse that mentioned Nazi Germany. Oh wait, I don't, because it DOESN'T EVER MAKE ANY REFERENCE TO IT, literally or otherwise. It couldn't be possible that you've misidentified some of the empires in Nebuchadnezzar's dream? Where do you come up with 8, anyway? In the passage, as even in the image of the statue above, there are 4 kingdoms, the 5th is the Kingdom of Christ, established during the reign of the Roman (4th) empire, that great stone that smashes the others to bits. Unless you mean Daniel 7, which is again about 4 kingdoms, and says specifically that the ten horns are kings, not additional empires. In each case, the 4th kingdom is Rome. In NO way do either of these refer to any empire beyond the first coming of Christ. Your conclusion is false, that is NOT the natural conclusion of my logic. I said, when the Bible SAYS "soon", "this generation", "shortly", "some standing here will not taste death", etc., then it applies to THEN, not 2,000 years later. That in no way implies that NONE of it is for today. You lack any understanding of what the Bible means by a "coming" or parousia. The word is used a number of times to simply mean his presence as evidenced by judgments on nations. That is the kind of "coming" he had in the first century, when he judged Israel and put an end to their sacrifices forever, the clear sign that his was the only sacrifice ever needed. It was not "the" second coming, which will be at the end of time to judge the living and the dead. Here's a site that might help you out on your obvious confusion about Daniel. I don't agree with everything on it, but it is pretty clear on the prophecies in Daniel 2 and 7. http://www.forerunner.com/eschatology/X0003_3._Premil_Rebuttal.html What I don't get is how you dispensationalists are so over-confident to the point of cockiness about your interpretation of some very cryptic prophecies. Yours isn't the only possible interpretation, and it happens to be wrong. This is called "newspaper exegesis". You look at today's news, then run to your Bible and interpret it based on what was on CNN. Instead, you should interpret history and your own time according to Scripture. See, the news determines how you read Scripture. Shouldn't Scripture determine how you read the world? You're just so sure you're so important that every page of the Bible MUST have been talking about you.

Cindy09
Cindy09

Group hug here from an old wretched sinner, saved only by grace! Love y'all!! :)

jrt1031
jrt1031

I think those of us that know God know him in our own way and not the way of someones interpretation of someone elses interpretation of the original interpretaion........ Stories get twisted up when you accept opinions other than your own formed opinon.

So, read the Bible, talk to God yourself and let him tell you how you should and should not interpret mans written words.

I was born Catholic and still find comfort in its community. I can take and leave what I want from it. I have a sense of freedom in the religion and dont feel controlled. This is what religion should be. If you dont feel a sense of free will in your religion then that is God telling you it is wrong and to change.

Bob Macchia
Bob Macchia

God said, "man will destroy himself," and the Muslim extremists are the start of our destruction. We are in the end times.

Rshill7
Rshill7

Could you please provide a scripture reference for that?

iatros
iatros

Jonathan Edwards was President of Yale University, not Princeton. John Witherspoon was President of The College of New Jersey, later to be named Princeton, and signatory to the Declaration of Independence.

JoeMontana16
JoeMontana16

Im not a Catholic and believe differently I guess I would say but if you're trying to change someone's mind concerning eternity then bashing them and what they believe certainly isn't the way to get it done. Jesus wouldn't use this tactic to sway people towards Him. Just remember that. It can be said respectfully. I have a problem with The Church of Christ. I have strong feelings for their beliefs such as baptism and salvation. Guess I should shut up cause those folks will really get you going big time.

Rshill7
Rshill7

What you are also failing to note is that these are Catholics I and some others are arguing with. They are not non-believers or atheists. They think they have everything right already. They also think they are the one true church. They also think Islam is another way to heaven. Big difference in Catholics and non-believers.

Catholics of yesterday and today are much more like the Pharisees and Sadducees, not like unbelievers. They fancied that they had all the answers already. That they were right and Christ was wrong.

Christ called them snakes, vipers, empty clouds, blind guides, hypocrites etc. I neither called anyone names like that nor did I physically touch, whip, or overturn anyone's tables. I did use the word ignorance and hypocrisy as I recall. Seems fairly tame compared to Christ's actual words and actual deeds, which are quite plain to any who cares to read them.

But then, I'm speaking of Jesus Himself, not a man-made caricature of Him.

Rshill7
Rshill7

Perhaps you missed the way Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and lawyers. You also may have missed the way he physically scourged the money changers in the temple and physically turned their tables over.

JoeMontana16
JoeMontana16

I hadn't seen any Catholics do any money changing in the Temple here lately or since I've been alive for that matter. If you believe these people aren't saved you are making them less likely to succeed. Maybe your disdain for them is so bad that you want them in Hell. I'm not saying that you do but it could be misconstrued as such. You're also missing the fact that Jesus tore the place up in one instance. The other folks he came at them with love and humility. It worked. You are not. I would swear you were Church of Christ. Also I know what it takes to get saved. Only one way. There are Catholics who feel the same way. So they'd be saved.

Southnsoul
Southnsoul

It's certainly not something we should argue over, but I personally believe like, Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, and other Bible prophecy teachers that there will be a European, revived Roman Empire, out of which the Anti-Christ and his system will arise.

I've been watching the signs of this coming together for many years and nearly came out my seat on December the 13th, when I received a Breaking News tweet, which those who follow this interpretation of biblical prophecy, will also find significant...

"EU (European Union) finance ministers have reached a deal that would bring many of the continent's banks under a single supervisor." (From the Wall Street Journal)

Rshill7
Rshill7

Have the Catholics here defended their religion any less vociferously than I have defended mine? It certainly doesn't look that way to me. If the Catholics didn't attempt to defend their beliefs, they would have no reason to be Catholic would they? If I didn't defend mine I would be equally bereft of reason regarding what I believe.

However, continue to direct any and all vitriol and criticism my way, even those that agree with me.

The sense of fairness from many of you seems quite a bit different than mine too. Perhaps instead of trying to stand for something, what many people appreciate is one who will fall for anything. I will not be that guy. I wouldn't expect any of you to be that guy (or girl) either.

If anyone wants to denigrate what I believe or be offended that I don't believe as they do, that's their right. I have no problem saying why I believe the way I do. I also have no problem saying why I do not believe the way you do, or any problem arguing it back and forth.

I do have a problem with being slandered. I have a problem with you manufacturing venom and putting in my pocket as if it were born there. As you look at me in disgust, take at least a wee glance at yourselves.

las1
las1

Pfft... what can you expect from a Michigander? Michigan's not really a state anyway, even Canada puts up a border to keep them out.

... as I quickly run north back across the border to make my escape... :)

AmericanborninCanada
AmericanborninCanada

lol. A bear vs a triple visioned canine. hmmmm. I might have to leave the warmth of Florida for a few days to watch that ;-)

AmericanborninCanada
AmericanborninCanada

oh crap that scared me! I thought you were gonna say I'd look like this, but then again, I already have..http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Daffy+duck+photos+angry+eyes&id=4773F38D6492B812B182A37846057F8F3A251D10&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=4773F38D6492B812B182A37846057F8F3A251D10&selectedIndex=0

las1
las1

My ophthalmologist told me I would have to continue with a third eye at least for the next four years... like I've said a number of times already... Obama's got my other two good eyes disbelieving what I'm seeing in America right now... so the third eye is simply compensation. I suggest you get one surgically implanted as well, or you could end up looking like this... if you are not careful...

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/11509495/images/1280873697792.jpg

AmericanborninCanada
AmericanborninCanada

I look at mybrotherbear who has sharp claws and a genuine love and concern for his friends and fellow people.

I can't help but think just now from two of my favorite stories- The Horse and His Boy and Prince Caspian.

I'm lousy at comparing, but seems to me in both of those stories, Aslan used his claws. Painfully, but out of love.

Mybear, I have seen your concern and love for others here- both gentle times and more vocal times. I hope folks can understand that ourbear is who he is and accept him, and accept all of us at all times not just the good times.

If I've stepped out of bounds here with you, I cringe as I wait for a claw swipe-

I love mybrotherbear.

BeyondPolls
BeyondPolls

I just don't know how Islam is going to make peace with the Jews. The Temple has to be built and the Dome of the Rock is blocking it.

Wolfie
Wolfie

Tell you one thing. A long while ago, I considered nominating myself as a volunteer moderator here. Reading down some of this thread. I'm wondering how any moderator is going to handle some of the discussion, which seems to have gotten very personal and vindictive for some people. Wild personal attacks on other people's faith... sigh. Thank goodness I'm not the moderator... Least half the discussion here disappear! LOL! Come on, you have to laugh, else you cry. God bless you readers... I don't care if you are a Protestant or a Catholic... We are CHRISTIANS FIRST! Wish more would remember that!

las1
las1

Wolfie... it is possible to attack the faith and not the person... and to do that even vehemently. Although I don't see it as attacking the faith but refuting it's claims. When someone tells me how terrible Luther was, even if they may have some of it wrong, I don't feel personally attacked. Maybe because I don't go to the Church of Luther, I don't have to defend him... I defend the articles of faith or doctrines.

I hope you can look at it this way... Iron sharpens Iron. The discourse helps you to understand why you believe what you believe when you are forced to defend or refute something.

I love it when my Catholic opponents contradict my view... it forces me to consider and to adjust if necessary.

But it's when it veers into personal attack... then that's no so good... but I would not want to see certain topics banned because some may be offended or hurt.

Now... if only we can get Scoop to post an anti-Obama worshiping video or something, and let it fly...

AmericanborninCanada
AmericanborninCanada

Trust me Wolfie, I've been wrestling with it.

I might be a lousy moderator because I 'know' the regular folks here so well. I can't moderate on this one, and if Scoop fires me for it, I'll understand.

jrt1031
jrt1031

The tone is easy to misread on a subject like this where some are very passionate. As a moderator and a reader I think we all need to learn to ignore those opinons that cause anger. Sometimes the best response to someones offensiveness is to ignore and not fuel the fire with attention. This why its so easy to skip over at the touch of a button.

Wolfie
Wolfie

Oh crap, did my post sound like a criticism? I never meant it that way, I'm trying to praise you. Nothing I'm saying is coming out right today.

let me try again. I'm glad I'm not a moderator today because it's a very hard job and you and the others do a great and often thankless job. Scoop better NOT fire you! You're not only one of the best posters, you're the best moderator as well.

There, I hope that's better.

AmericanborninCanada
AmericanborninCanada

I didn't see it as a criticism at all Wolfie. I was just stating my case. :-) I don't know either about your sweet compliments- but hopefully folks understand sometimes now with threads like these, if they don't get moderated, that's why.

I really would make a lousy for real Sheriff, even if I do love my job here.

Wolfie
Wolfie

I have one Biblical quote that came to mind reading just a tiny part of this thread (I normally read all comments but this topic is... You can read some more of my comments below if you care to.)

John 11:35: "Jesus Wept"

That is all.

GiantM
GiantM

Huh...I just read that a couple days ago! Now I know why. :)

911Infidel
911Infidel

If you reaseach all of Walid's points, you'll find that his reasoning is sound. I checked all of the references that he uses and sure enough all of them are Islamic countries. Even if you go back to their OT names. That includes their tribal names.

The wounded beast that comes back, fits with the Ottoman empire and the current revival of the Khalifa that is in progress.

Rome is a kingdom by the sea and most definitely produces wine that intoxicates. But it is not a kingdom by the sea. And if you substitute the word "oil" for the word "wine", prophecy makes perfect sense.

I spent years studying Revelation and Daniel. I poured through my Pastor's library of commentaries; took correspondence courses, went to Bible college, etc, etc. But in my heart of hearts, I knew that what I was reading was wrong.

I prayed for a teacher to come along who could make these crooked paths straight again. And along came Walid and Joel Richardson. A former Jew and a former Muslim. And why not? He used a former Jew to write the lionshare of the NT. Why not add to the eclectic mix by also using a former Muslim too?

Rome and Europe are not mentioned in Judgement in the Scriptures. But Islamic countries are mentioned in both Old and NT prophecy.

I'm glad to see that many churches are beginning to see the light and are adopting Walid and Joel's views on prophecy. Its not really a "new" view. This view has persisted for many years. It was the prevailing view in the 16th and 17th centuries. By that time Europe had fought and won many wars with Islam and Biblical scholars were very familiar with its teachings.

I agree with Walid that the Bible is an Eastern book; not a Western one. I think that one gains a better understanding of Scripture when one adopts that mindset.

Watchman74
Watchman74

I believe Islam does have a part to play in the end-times, particularity in the Magog Invasion, but I'm still not sold on a Muslim Anti-Christ. For one the AC declares himself God, this is a no no in Islam. Two, the Jews would ever accept a Muslim as there Messiah. Third, the Islamic world is behind everyone else economically and militarily, they don't have the infrastructure to be a dominant world power.

Europe on the other hand is already a revived Roman Empire. They came together politically and economically, and talks of a common military. They have a common currency, that coincidentally depicts a woman riding a beast. The have unelected officials running the EU, with talks of a super president that resembles a Ceaser. Recently they appointed a senator for life, just like in ancient Rome. Everything is in place. I'm aware there going through economic difficulties just like everyone else right now, but it was through economic turmoil that Hitler came to power. I think it will also be true with the AC.

Don't get me wrong, I like Walid. But I think too much time is spent looking at Islamic eschatology which is really just a corruption of biblical eschatology.

ltj ltj
ltj ltj

And if they continue to strengthen their ties with NATO this could fill in the military weaknesses they've had in the past.

Watchman74
Watchman74

Yup, I think Libya was a turning point. The war in Libya exposed the shortcomings of NATO in its inability to overthrow a two-bit dictator, coupled with supply issues and it's dependence on American weapons and intel. Many in Europe are asking if the old Cold War NATO hasn't outlived it's usefulness and it's time for a common EU military.

911Infidel
911Infidel

An open letter to Rshill7:

Dude you are spot on. Now me, I spent 12 years in Catholic school. I was baptised in a catholic church as an infant. Had my first communion in second grade; my first confession in 4th grade.

For the longest time I accepted all the myths that my parents taught me. Like only a priest can understand and interpret the Bible. So we were forbidden to read it except on Easter and Christmas.

That we can pray someone out of Purgatory. Yet no one ever bothered to consider the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where Christ makes clear that there is no in-between place.

Use to pray for the dead. Never considered that King Saul was killed the very next day for the sin of communing with the dead.

And who are the saints? I never learned that the saints were all born-again people.

Oh and that Pope thing. I come to find out that the passage that Catholics cite as their reason for the Pope thing, was all about "faith" nothing more. And that Constantine was really the first Pope.

Then there is the praying to Mary thing. Oh yeah, we most definitely prayed to Mary and bowed to her statue.She was the intercessor like al-manat. al-uzza or al-alat.

Of course, no one ever explained to us that there is only one name under heaven by which men can be saved...and that is Jesus Christ. He is the intercessor between God and man.

Once I became born-again I embarked on a almost two-year spiritual journey trying to research my Catholic background and trying to figure out intellectually if the Protestants were right or not.I think I read something like 100 books in my first year of this journey.

I spent almost every dime that I had on books...I just couldn't get enough information.

I even tried going to the Catholic church one Sunday and the Protestant Church the next Sunday. But I could never find the answers to my spiritual questions from any priest or from any of the laity. I found those answers in the Gospel of John.

Thank goodness the Holy Spirit is a powerful teacher: the giver of all wisdom and discernment.

Rather than argue Rshill7 points. Why not do what Walid Shoebat did. Open up the Scriptures and read them for yourselves. Hearts and minds that are opened completely will find the truth.

Jesus Christ didn't speak in parables for nothing. He spoke in parables so that those that truely wish to know His will for their lives, will get his point. Those that have no such wish, will never find it.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Matthew 7:7-8

TheresaAK
TheresaAK

Fantastic post 911Infidel.....very similar testimony for someone in my immediate family.

I enjoyed your testimony immensely.

Thank you and God Bless you.

911Infidel
911Infidel

Thanks. And God Bless you as well.

las1
las1

Thanks for that 911...I've read about and seen many RC's who have a Walid Shoebat type experience like yours. Scripture is the only thing they can reliably fall back on when they tray to square tradition with the Bible.

Rshill7
Rshill7

"Rather than argue Rshill7 points. Why not do what Walid Shoebat did. Open up the Scriptures and read them for yourselves. Hearts and minds that are opened completely will find the truth." (911 infidel)

Had I not read the scriptures for myself I would have no points to argue. If I have been "spot on" it's from the scriptures alone. I don't have Rshill7 points, I have scriptural points with a few historic points thrown in. My first Biblical quote on this thread was John 14:6.

911Infidel
911Infidel

You're parsing words and you totally misinterpreted what I said. So I'll state it plainly: I'm in agreement with your points and issued a challenge to those that disagree to go and do a little intellectual inquiry of their own.

las1
las1

Hey... I didn't criticize... all I said was that Michigan is not really a state. :)

It's a Catholic State... is it not?

OK.. ok... I'm gone... I'll row back to Manitoulin.

PVG
PVG

Bless you and thank you for your service my friend!

911Infidel
911Infidel

I wouldn't go so far to say that I found Christ. Its more like He found me. I was just doing my job as a FO attached to an infantry BN in a far off tropical place.

Never tell a grunt " Come to me all ye who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). Cause that grunt might actually identify with such a statement and quite possibly accept Christ. Well at least this one did.

The Word of God is like a cool drink of water from a canteen. (I believe that attribution belongs to Gen Krulak).

And thanks.

Rshill7
Rshill7

My answer is straight forward on purpose. I read your post the first time, that's how I arrived at the portions I quoted.

If I misunderstood you though, that was not on purpose, and I admire you for finding your way through all the Catholic ~stuff~ to Christ himself. It is highly commendable and worthy of much respect.

This has been a thread where even those who agreed wholeheartedly with me still found a way to nevertheless criticize my methods and/or motives. Since you have explained yourself, I will not count you among those. Now I will give you the belated "Thanks for that" which you deserve.

911Infidel
911Infidel

The title is misleading on purpose. The body of my posit was a thoughtful defense of your points. Read it again.

Rshill7
Rshill7

The intro to your post said, "An open letter to Rshill7", so, I naturally took you at your word and read it as if it were actually to me.

AmericanborninCanada
AmericanborninCanada

Thank you 911Infidel. Passionately said like all of your thoughtful comments.

Amen on the last bits too. He is the Word. All we need to know is found in His Word.