Walid has good points. Ishmael the son of Abraham always wanted to be the people blessed by Abraham in replacement Isaac. Naturally, his descendents are the arab people and the arabs of today sound like just Ishmael's mother Hagar; to take the blessing in the stead of Isaac. Well, it did not happen. Thank God. Jealousy is the base for the antisemitic plan of satan and the arab islamic brotherhood.
Daniel 8 and 11, speaks of the king of the north(Grecia) who in the end of years will join himself with the daughter(religion) of the king of the south(Persia), Iran is the only thing standing in the way, but we have been in talks with them. If you google a map of the Persian empire you will see it has just about been reformed. Isaiah 14 speaks of the Assyrian empire which is almost the same countries as the old Persian empire. only thing standing in the way is Syria, but the Obama administration is in the process of assuring the rise of the muslim brotherhood there as well. All the other countries are currently under US control. Egypt, Lybia, Cush, Iraq, Jordan, Pakistan, Afghanistan. Meshech and Tubal is Turkey and we just sent Patriot missles there through NATO(North Atlantic Treaty Organization). Obama is Gog ie. the Assyrian, ie. Appollyon, ie Abbadon. As for a revived Roman empire coming out of Europe, where did the the Citizens of the United States migrate from???? American history class I took, said Europe.
I can save you all a lot of time and confusion. There will be no beast. That is because that prophecy referred to Nero Caesar. It ALREADY HAPPENED. FULFILLED. PAST. I am amazed that so many Christians ignore the Bible's numerous cues: "THIS generation shall not pass away until ALL these things are accomplished", "There are some STANDING HERE who shall NOT TASTE DEATH until...", Revelation is bookended with "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him show to his servants the things that must SOON take place." and "Surely I am coming SOON". Low information Christians read these and think, "Oh, SOON! It's coming SOON!" Update: these things were written 2,000 years ago. Soon to THEM, not you. The standard response is, "Yeah, but with God 1 day is as a thousand years and vicey-versey!" That is an abuse of that verse. In context it simply meant that God was no less likely to keep his promises if much time has passed. It didn't give god liberty to speak deceptively. And it doesn't magically make "soon" mean thousands of years. And certainly not "some of you people here, right now, the ones I'm talking to, yes, you, some of YOU will not yet be dead when it happens" mean thousands of years after they are dead. Or that he was mystically speaking through the centuries to the believers of today. Which generation was to know that they were the ones he was "really" speaking to? This is the kind of sloppy exegesis that dispensationalism has forced people to engage in. People think this is what Christians have always believed. It's NOT! Dispensationalism is only a couple of decades old, and unfortunately widely propagated through Ryrie and Scofield study bibles. It is one of the greatest errors in the church today, based on 3 WRONG assumptions: 1. That Israel and the church are entirely distinct with distinct destinies (the New Testament teaches that the church is the fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy), 2. That there will be a pre-tribulation rapture (hint: the tribulation is also a 1st century event - DONE), and 3. The TERRIBLE claim of a "literal" hermeneutic, that forces all kinds of figurative and symbolic passages to be taken in an artificially literal way, and which is not applied consistently even by dispensationalists (anyone think Jesus is literally a door, with hinges and what-not?). Listen, it is not blessed to insist Jews will be given the literal land of Israel. It was a type, a foreshadowing, of the fact that God would give his people the WHOLE WORLD! That's BETTER than a dusty middle-eastern piece of property! It is not a good thing to go backward and reinstitute animal sacrifice - Christ has come, and his sacrifice is effective where those could never be. The fulfillment is INFINITELY better than the type. But people are still hoping for the imperfect precursors.
What...huh? So by that 'logic', because the Bible was written 2,000 years ago, none of it applies now. The first coming of Christ was his birth. Are you implying he came back a second time since then?
There were eight beast empires referred to in Naebakanezer's dream. Seven of those have past. Nazi Germany being the last. There's one more remaining. But whatever helps you sleep better at night.
Oh yeah, NOW I remember that Bible verse that mentioned Nazi Germany. Oh wait, I don't, because it DOESN'T EVER MAKE ANY REFERENCE TO IT, literally or otherwise. It couldn't be possible that you've misidentified some of the empires in Nebuchadnezzar's dream? Where do you come up with 8, anyway? In the passage, as even in the image of the statue above, there are 4 kingdoms, the 5th is the Kingdom of Christ, established during the reign of the Roman (4th) empire, that great stone that smashes the others to bits. Unless you mean Daniel 7, which is again about 4 kingdoms, and says specifically that the ten horns are kings, not additional empires. In each case, the 4th kingdom is Rome. In NO way do either of these refer to any empire beyond the first coming of Christ. Your conclusion is false, that is NOT the natural conclusion of my logic. I said, when the Bible SAYS "soon", "this generation", "shortly", "some standing here will not taste death", etc., then it applies to THEN, not 2,000 years later. That in no way implies that NONE of it is for today. You lack any understanding of what the Bible means by a "coming" or parousia. The word is used a number of times to simply mean his presence as evidenced by judgments on nations. That is the kind of "coming" he had in the first century, when he judged Israel and put an end to their sacrifices forever, the clear sign that his was the only sacrifice ever needed. It was not "the" second coming, which will be at the end of time to judge the living and the dead. Here's a site that might help you out on your obvious confusion about Daniel. I don't agree with everything on it, but it is pretty clear on the prophecies in Daniel 2 and 7. http://www.forerunner.com/eschatology/X0003_3._Premil_Rebuttal.html What I don't get is how you dispensationalists are so over-confident to the point of cockiness about your interpretation of some very cryptic prophecies. Yours isn't the only possible interpretation, and it happens to be wrong. This is called "newspaper exegesis". You look at today's news, then run to your Bible and interpret it based on what was on CNN. Instead, you should interpret history and your own time according to Scripture. See, the news determines how you read Scripture. Shouldn't Scripture determine how you read the world? You're just so sure you're so important that every page of the Bible MUST have been talking about you.
I think those of us that know God know him in our own way and not the way of someones interpretation of someone elses interpretation of the original interpretaion........ Stories get twisted up when you accept opinions other than your own formed opinon.
So, read the Bible, talk to God yourself and let him tell you how you should and should not interpret mans written words.
I was born Catholic and still find comfort in its community. I can take and leave what I want from it. I have a sense of freedom in the religion and dont feel controlled. This is what religion should be. If you dont feel a sense of free will in your religion then that is God telling you it is wrong and to change.
God said, "man will destroy himself," and the Muslim extremists are the start of our destruction. We are in the end times.
Jonathan Edwards was President of Yale University, not Princeton. John Witherspoon was President of The College of New Jersey, later to be named Princeton, and signatory to the Declaration of Independence.
Im not a Catholic and believe differently I guess I would say but if you're trying to change someone's mind concerning eternity then bashing them and what they believe certainly isn't the way to get it done. Jesus wouldn't use this tactic to sway people towards Him. Just remember that. It can be said respectfully. I have a problem with The Church of Christ. I have strong feelings for their beliefs such as baptism and salvation. Guess I should shut up cause those folks will really get you going big time.
What you are also failing to note is that these are Catholics I and some others are arguing with. They are not non-believers or atheists. They think they have everything right already. They also think they are the one true church. They also think Islam is another way to heaven. Big difference in Catholics and non-believers.
Catholics of yesterday and today are much more like the Pharisees and Sadducees, not like unbelievers. They fancied that they had all the answers already. That they were right and Christ was wrong.
Christ called them snakes, vipers, empty clouds, blind guides, hypocrites etc. I neither called anyone names like that nor did I physically touch, whip, or overturn anyone's tables. I did use the word ignorance and hypocrisy as I recall. Seems fairly tame compared to Christ's actual words and actual deeds, which are quite plain to any who cares to read them.
But then, I'm speaking of Jesus Himself, not a man-made caricature of Him.
Perhaps you missed the way Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and lawyers. You also may have missed the way he physically scourged the money changers in the temple and physically turned their tables over.
I hadn't seen any Catholics do any money changing in the Temple here lately or since I've been alive for that matter. If you believe these people aren't saved you are making them less likely to succeed. Maybe your disdain for them is so bad that you want them in Hell. I'm not saying that you do but it could be misconstrued as such. You're also missing the fact that Jesus tore the place up in one instance. The other folks he came at them with love and humility. It worked. You are not. I would swear you were Church of Christ. Also I know what it takes to get saved. Only one way. There are Catholics who feel the same way. So they'd be saved.
It's certainly not something we should argue over, but I personally believe like, Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, and other Bible prophecy teachers that there will be a European, revived Roman Empire, out of which the Anti-Christ and his system will arise.
I've been watching the signs of this coming together for many years and nearly came out my seat on December the 13th, when I received a Breaking News tweet, which those who follow this interpretation of biblical prophecy, will also find significant...
"EU (European Union) finance ministers have reached a deal that would bring many of the continent's banks under a single supervisor." (From the Wall Street Journal)
Have the Catholics here defended their religion any less vociferously than I have defended mine? It certainly doesn't look that way to me. If the Catholics didn't attempt to defend their beliefs, they would have no reason to be Catholic would they? If I didn't defend mine I would be equally bereft of reason regarding what I believe.
However, continue to direct any and all vitriol and criticism my way, even those that agree with me.
The sense of fairness from many of you seems quite a bit different than mine too. Perhaps instead of trying to stand for something, what many people appreciate is one who will fall for anything. I will not be that guy. I wouldn't expect any of you to be that guy (or girl) either.
If anyone wants to denigrate what I believe or be offended that I don't believe as they do, that's their right. I have no problem saying why I believe the way I do. I also have no problem saying why I do not believe the way you do, or any problem arguing it back and forth.
I do have a problem with being slandered. I have a problem with you manufacturing venom and putting in my pocket as if it were born there. As you look at me in disgust, take at least a wee glance at yourselves.
Pfft... what can you expect from a Michigander? Michigan's not really a state anyway, even Canada puts up a border to keep them out.
... as I quickly run north back across the border to make my escape... :)
lol. A bear vs a triple visioned canine. hmmmm. I might have to leave the warmth of Florida for a few days to watch that ;-)
oh crap that scared me! I thought you were gonna say I'd look like this, but then again, I already have..http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Daffy+duck+photos+angry+eyes&id=4773F38D6492B812B182A37846057F8F3A251D10&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=4773F38D6492B812B182A37846057F8F3A251D10&selectedIndex=0
My ophthalmologist told me I would have to continue with a third eye at least for the next four years... like I've said a number of times already... Obama's got my other two good eyes disbelieving what I'm seeing in America right now... so the third eye is simply compensation. I suggest you get one surgically implanted as well, or you could end up looking like this... if you are not careful...
I look at mybrotherbear who has sharp claws and a genuine love and concern for his friends and fellow people.
I can't help but think just now from two of my favorite stories- The Horse and His Boy and Prince Caspian.
I'm lousy at comparing, but seems to me in both of those stories, Aslan used his claws. Painfully, but out of love.
Mybear, I have seen your concern and love for others here- both gentle times and more vocal times. I hope folks can understand that ourbear is who he is and accept him, and accept all of us at all times not just the good times.
If I've stepped out of bounds here with you, I cringe as I wait for a claw swipe-
I love mybrotherbear.
I just don't know how Islam is going to make peace with the Jews. The Temple has to be built and the Dome of the Rock is blocking it.
Tell you one thing. A long while ago, I considered nominating myself as a volunteer moderator here. Reading down some of this thread. I'm wondering how any moderator is going to handle some of the discussion, which seems to have gotten very personal and vindictive for some people. Wild personal attacks on other people's faith... sigh. Thank goodness I'm not the moderator... Least half the discussion here disappear! LOL! Come on, you have to laugh, else you cry. God bless you readers... I don't care if you are a Protestant or a Catholic... We are CHRISTIANS FIRST! Wish more would remember that!
Wolfie... it is possible to attack the faith and not the person... and to do that even vehemently. Although I don't see it as attacking the faith but refuting it's claims. When someone tells me how terrible Luther was, even if they may have some of it wrong, I don't feel personally attacked. Maybe because I don't go to the Church of Luther, I don't have to defend him... I defend the articles of faith or doctrines.
I hope you can look at it this way... Iron sharpens Iron. The discourse helps you to understand why you believe what you believe when you are forced to defend or refute something.
I love it when my Catholic opponents contradict my view... it forces me to consider and to adjust if necessary.
But it's when it veers into personal attack... then that's no so good... but I would not want to see certain topics banned because some may be offended or hurt.
Now... if only we can get Scoop to post an anti-Obama worshiping video or something, and let it fly...
Trust me Wolfie, I've been wrestling with it.
I might be a lousy moderator because I 'know' the regular folks here so well. I can't moderate on this one, and if Scoop fires me for it, I'll understand.
The tone is easy to misread on a subject like this where some are very passionate. As a moderator and a reader I think we all need to learn to ignore those opinons that cause anger. Sometimes the best response to someones offensiveness is to ignore and not fuel the fire with attention. This why its so easy to skip over at the touch of a button.
Oh crap, did my post sound like a criticism? I never meant it that way, I'm trying to praise you. Nothing I'm saying is coming out right today.
let me try again. I'm glad I'm not a moderator today because it's a very hard job and you and the others do a great and often thankless job. Scoop better NOT fire you! You're not only one of the best posters, you're the best moderator as well.
There, I hope that's better.
I didn't see it as a criticism at all Wolfie. I was just stating my case. :-) I don't know either about your sweet compliments- but hopefully folks understand sometimes now with threads like these, if they don't get moderated, that's why.
I really would make a lousy for real Sheriff, even if I do love my job here.
I have one Biblical quote that came to mind reading just a tiny part of this thread (I normally read all comments but this topic is... You can read some more of my comments below if you care to.)
John 11:35: "Jesus Wept"
That is all.
I posted this before. For those interested in some advanced prophecy reading try this link:
If you reaseach all of Walid's points, you'll find that his reasoning is sound. I checked all of the references that he uses and sure enough all of them are Islamic countries. Even if you go back to their OT names. That includes their tribal names.
The wounded beast that comes back, fits with the Ottoman empire and the current revival of the Khalifa that is in progress.
Rome is a kingdom by the sea and most definitely produces wine that intoxicates. But it is not a kingdom by the sea. And if you substitute the word "oil" for the word "wine", prophecy makes perfect sense.
I spent years studying Revelation and Daniel. I poured through my Pastor's library of commentaries; took correspondence courses, went to Bible college, etc, etc. But in my heart of hearts, I knew that what I was reading was wrong.
I prayed for a teacher to come along who could make these crooked paths straight again. And along came Walid and Joel Richardson. A former Jew and a former Muslim. And why not? He used a former Jew to write the lionshare of the NT. Why not add to the eclectic mix by also using a former Muslim too?
Rome and Europe are not mentioned in Judgement in the Scriptures. But Islamic countries are mentioned in both Old and NT prophecy.
I'm glad to see that many churches are beginning to see the light and are adopting Walid and Joel's views on prophecy. Its not really a "new" view. This view has persisted for many years. It was the prevailing view in the 16th and 17th centuries. By that time Europe had fought and won many wars with Islam and Biblical scholars were very familiar with its teachings.
I agree with Walid that the Bible is an Eastern book; not a Western one. I think that one gains a better understanding of Scripture when one adopts that mindset.
I believe Islam does have a part to play in the end-times, particularity in the Magog Invasion, but I'm still not sold on a Muslim Anti-Christ. For one the AC declares himself God, this is a no no in Islam. Two, the Jews would ever accept a Muslim as there Messiah. Third, the Islamic world is behind everyone else economically and militarily, they don't have the infrastructure to be a dominant world power.
Europe on the other hand is already a revived Roman Empire. They came together politically and economically, and talks of a common military. They have a common currency, that coincidentally depicts a woman riding a beast. The have unelected officials running the EU, with talks of a super president that resembles a Ceaser. Recently they appointed a senator for life, just like in ancient Rome. Everything is in place. I'm aware there going through economic difficulties just like everyone else right now, but it was through economic turmoil that Hitler came to power. I think it will also be true with the AC.
Don't get me wrong, I like Walid. But I think too much time is spent looking at Islamic eschatology which is really just a corruption of biblical eschatology.
And if they continue to strengthen their ties with NATO this could fill in the military weaknesses they've had in the past.
Yup, I think Libya was a turning point. The war in Libya exposed the shortcomings of NATO in its inability to overthrow a two-bit dictator, coupled with supply issues and it's dependence on American weapons and intel. Many in Europe are asking if the old Cold War NATO hasn't outlived it's usefulness and it's time for a common EU military.
An open letter to Rshill7:
Dude you are spot on. Now me, I spent 12 years in Catholic school. I was baptised in a catholic church as an infant. Had my first communion in second grade; my first confession in 4th grade.
For the longest time I accepted all the myths that my parents taught me. Like only a priest can understand and interpret the Bible. So we were forbidden to read it except on Easter and Christmas.
That we can pray someone out of Purgatory. Yet no one ever bothered to consider the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where Christ makes clear that there is no in-between place.
Use to pray for the dead. Never considered that King Saul was killed the very next day for the sin of communing with the dead.
And who are the saints? I never learned that the saints were all born-again people.
Oh and that Pope thing. I come to find out that the passage that Catholics cite as their reason for the Pope thing, was all about "faith" nothing more. And that Constantine was really the first Pope.
Then there is the praying to Mary thing. Oh yeah, we most definitely prayed to Mary and bowed to her statue.She was the intercessor like al-manat. al-uzza or al-alat.
Of course, no one ever explained to us that there is only one name under heaven by which men can be saved...and that is Jesus Christ. He is the intercessor between God and man.
Once I became born-again I embarked on a almost two-year spiritual journey trying to research my Catholic background and trying to figure out intellectually if the Protestants were right or not.I think I read something like 100 books in my first year of this journey.
I spent almost every dime that I had on books...I just couldn't get enough information.
I even tried going to the Catholic church one Sunday and the Protestant Church the next Sunday. But I could never find the answers to my spiritual questions from any priest or from any of the laity. I found those answers in the Gospel of John.
Thank goodness the Holy Spirit is a powerful teacher: the giver of all wisdom and discernment.
Rather than argue Rshill7 points. Why not do what Walid Shoebat did. Open up the Scriptures and read them for yourselves. Hearts and minds that are opened completely will find the truth.
Jesus Christ didn't speak in parables for nothing. He spoke in parables so that those that truely wish to know His will for their lives, will get his point. Those that have no such wish, will never find it.
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Matthew 7:7-8
Fantastic post 911Infidel.....very similar testimony for someone in my immediate family.
I enjoyed your testimony immensely.
Thank you and God Bless you.
Thanks for that 911...I've read about and seen many RC's who have a Walid Shoebat type experience like yours. Scripture is the only thing they can reliably fall back on when they tray to square tradition with the Bible.
"Rather than argue Rshill7 points. Why not do what Walid Shoebat did. Open up the Scriptures and read them for yourselves. Hearts and minds that are opened completely will find the truth." (911 infidel)
Had I not read the scriptures for myself I would have no points to argue. If I have been "spot on" it's from the scriptures alone. I don't have Rshill7 points, I have scriptural points with a few historic points thrown in. My first Biblical quote on this thread was John 14:6.
You're parsing words and you totally misinterpreted what I said. So I'll state it plainly: I'm in agreement with your points and issued a challenge to those that disagree to go and do a little intellectual inquiry of their own.
Hey... I didn't criticize... all I said was that Michigan is not really a state. :)
It's a Catholic State... is it not?
OK.. ok... I'm gone... I'll row back to Manitoulin.
I wouldn't go so far to say that I found Christ. Its more like He found me. I was just doing my job as a FO attached to an infantry BN in a far off tropical place.
Never tell a grunt " Come to me all ye who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). Cause that grunt might actually identify with such a statement and quite possibly accept Christ. Well at least this one did.
The Word of God is like a cool drink of water from a canteen. (I believe that attribution belongs to Gen Krulak).
My answer is straight forward on purpose. I read your post the first time, that's how I arrived at the portions I quoted.
If I misunderstood you though, that was not on purpose, and I admire you for finding your way through all the Catholic ~stuff~ to Christ himself. It is highly commendable and worthy of much respect.
This has been a thread where even those who agreed wholeheartedly with me still found a way to nevertheless criticize my methods and/or motives. Since you have explained yourself, I will not count you among those. Now I will give you the belated "Thanks for that" which you deserve.
The title is misleading on purpose. The body of my posit was a thoughtful defense of your points. Read it again.
The intro to your post said, "An open letter to Rshill7", so, I naturally took you at your word and read it as if it were actually to me.
Thank you 911Infidel. Passionately said like all of your thoughtful comments.
Amen on the last bits too. He is the Word. All we need to know is found in His Word.