There is also a great Catholic prophecy that corrolates what his interpretation of Scripture is,
The Blessed Virgin said to a cloistered nun in the 1950's that God's plan for America involves purity of mind and body, but what happened was the adversary's distructive plan took hold with 'liberation' of sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll.
Indeed we WILL be cleansed/chastised , and in the long haul, God's plan will BE DONE.
Thank you God for the inspiration of Walid of spreading your Holy Will.
Forget the names. Leave words (language) behind. Listen to (hear) the concepts. The (REAL) movement has finally begun. Do not look or be held back. Just remember, it's ALWAYS been a (your) choice ... :-)
Walid Shoebat knows what obama is and so do we. The question becomes what if anything do we do about it?
Pay back Caesar's things to Caesar and God's things to God. These are Jesus' words. As a follower of Christ you must understand what he meant and you must follow it.
So do you know what are Caesar's things and what are God's things? You must not compromise and give to Caesar what belongs to God.
At Luke 4:5-8, Jesus was tempted by Satan
5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.” 8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.”
What did Satan show Jesus? Do all the Kingdoms of the world really belong to Satan?
You can understand why Jesus said his Kingdom was not of this world (John 18:36). In fact in that verse Jesus said if his kingdom was part of the world, his attendants would have fought his being delivered up to the Jews. They did not fight.
It is not hard to see why Jesus said John 17:14 "I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world."
Three times Jesus talked about the ruler of the world at John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11, Who do you think he was talking about?
1 John 5:19 - the whole world lies in the power of the evil one
2 Corinthians 4:4 - Satan, who is the god of this world
Revelations 12:9 - Satan, the deceiver of the whole world
Again we can understand why James says at James 4:4 "friendship with the world means enmity against God"
So what of the Kingdoms and Governments of this world, are they under the control of Satan? It certainly would explains why this world is constantly going downhill . Revelation 16:14, 16 describe Satan as maneuvering all the Governments to fight against God. This is the Battle of Armageddon.
"They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty... Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon."
Yes, the Governments will never give to Jesus authority (Psalm 2:12), instead Psalms 2:1-3 show their attitude. "1 Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One. 3 "Let us break their chains," they say, "and throw off their fetters."
Do you think if Christ came to the US and said get rid of all your guns and weapons (Psalm 46:9), do you think they would do it. No they would not.
So Daniel 2:44 become necessary "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever."
We pray for this Kingdom in the Lord's Prayer. His kingdom come and will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
The work Jesus gave his followers to do was to preach to all the nations, this commission would make them neutral in the governments of those nations. They were to make disciples of people of all the nations. Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19, 20.
Although Christian would live in every nation, they were not to be divided by those nations, Jesus prayed that they would have the same love that existed between him and his father and that they would be as united as he and his father. John 17:20-26; John 13:34,35.
True Christians would serve as ambassadors of Christ. An ambassador does not get involved in the affairs of their host nations they promote the interest of their Government.
Paul said at 2 Cor. 5:20: “we are ambassadors for Christ”, and at Phil. 3:20 he said: “our citizenship is in heaven.”
So what is the responsibility of a Christian to the country they find themselves in?
Romans 13:1-6, some misapply this scripture to say that here God approves of involvement with Governments. But it does not say that. God allows them to exist number one to prove the utter failure of man-rule. It also provides a measure of order. For Christians they should be the best citizen of which ever government they live in. They should be honest and pay taxes and respect the leaders.
Those are things that belong to Caesar. What belongs to God. Our Allegence and loyalty.
When the leaders told the apostles to stop preaching, they said at Acts 5:29 "We must obey God rather than men!"
The earliest Christians that lived in the century of Christ did not get involved in the governments nor war. There is a ton of research information for you to look at, here are a few:
From The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the First Three Centuries by Dr. Augustus Neander, p.168: “The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavoring to instill more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”
From The March of Civilization, Ancient and Medieval World by Jesse E. Wrench, Professor of History, University of Missouri, p.205: “The Christians refused to show their loyalty by burning incense to the emperor. Being men of peace, they would not serve in the Roman armies.”
From From the Old World to the New by E.A. Golligan, Associate Superintendent of Schools, City of New York, and Maxwell F. Littwin, Principal of New York City Public Schools, pp. 88,89: “They preferred the Kingdom of God to any kingdom that they might serve on earth. …The early Christians were ready to die for their faith. …Since they believed in peace they would not serve in Rome’s imperial armies.”
The Church the Gospel and War, by Rufus M. Jones, on page 78, reports on what Celsus, the pagan critic of Christianity said regarding Christians during the decade of about 170-80: “ ‘If all men were to do the same as you, there would be nothing to prevent the king from being left in utter solitude and desertion and the force of the empire would fall into the hands of the wildest and most lawless barbarians.’ Such words are so explicit as to warrant the assumption that Celsus knew of no Christians who would accept military service.”
Yes Caesar will often try to encroach upon what belongs to God. Look a WWI and WWII, these were wars fought by nations full of Christians, instead of obeying God, they obeyed Caesars and fought a terrible war. If the Christians had obeyed God, there would not have been a war.
Listen to what the Religions declared after WWI
“ ‘We believe that war is wrong, being contrary to the principles of the Prince of Peace.’
Northern Baptist Convention, 1933.
“ ‘We record our conviction that war is contrary to the mind of the Christ; that the continuance of civilization demands its entire elimination and that it is the duty of all Christians and all churches to find a Christian way to meet international situations which threaten war.’
Congregational Churches in the United States, National Council, 1925.
“ ‘War as a method of settling international disputes is incompatible with the teaching and example of our Lord Jesus Christ.’
Disciples of Christ, International Convention, 1931.
“ ‘International warfare and the gospel of love and brotherhood which we profess are incompatible. The methods used and the passions aroused by war both outrage Christ’s conception of a kingdom of God in which men shall trust, love and forgive one another.’
Evangelical Synod of North America, 1929.
“The Ohio preachers have this to say: ‘We hold war to be unchristian. The church should completely disassociate itself from the war system.’
Ohio State Pastors’ Convention, 1932.
“ ‘War is a denial of the basic principles of the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man …a violation of the Christian religion.’
Universalist General Convention, 1923.
As I said before talk is easy, yes although they admitted these things they again disobey Christ and listened to Caesar and supported WWII.
Whatever else Obama may be, and I do believe Obama holds Islam near and dear to his heart right behind his narcissistic self, Obama is first and foremost a man of lawlessness, and perhaps even "the man of lawlessness". A man, who by his cunning, shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. A man who masks a major inferiority complex, behind a covering of arrogance and Islamic supremacism "inbred" into him since he was a boy in Indonesia. A pathological narcissist and a pathological liar, not only to others but to himself, and that makes him dangerous.
We, the American people, are not a people who are ruled or lorded over, but a Constitutional Republic where "We The People" are the masters and the people whom we send, as our representatives to DC, are but our servants. Our servants, who take an oath, to support and defend the U.S. Constitution. Obama is doing neither, but actually is waging a war against the U.S. Constitution and everything it represents. Obama has nothing but disdain and contempt for the U.S. Constitution, viewing it as a "document of negative rights" that prevents the government, i.e. him, from doing things to the American people that Obama desires to do. Obama is the lawless one, where the U.S. Constitution is nothing but an archaic bothersome restraint upon him, and the rule of law means nothing to him for he is ideologically determined to "transform America", and put her on his "new foundation". As a man who believes that the "ends justifies the means", Obama will stop at nothing.
I'm reminded of the biblical parable of the master of the vineyard, who went away for a time and sent his servant to check on the vineyard. The master sent several servants, but the wicked servants of the master at the vineyard killed each one. So the master said, I will send my son surely they will not harm my son, so the son went and he was killed too. The people in DC are like the wicked servants of the vineyard for again "We the People" are the masters and the people in Washington, DC are our servants, but they do as they please and engage in acts of disobedience and wickedness against their master. As Jesus noted, "no servant is greater than his master", but they deem themselves the new masters now and we had better just get used to it is their attitude. They also know they need to disarm us to permanently finalize this new "arrangement" in the "relationship".
Obama and his regime are rebelling against "We The People" and the U.S. Constitution that they swore under oath to support and defend. If there is a civil war in this country, "We the People" will not be the ones who are the "rebels" for Obama is the one in rebellion for he is a man of lawlessness. Obama is an evil man and a usurper at heart. A servant can rebel against is master, but a master can not rebel against his servant.
Obama a practitioner of Neo-Marxist Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals", along with his regime, have from the start of his first term, and even before, with referring to many Americans as bitter gun and Bible clingers, and after being sworn in Obama, the DHS, along with the Pentagon, began to vilify a large segment of the American people, like Hitler did the Jews, calling them "right-wing extremists", "racists", and returning veterans "low-level terrorists". We are being treated as the enemy and meanwhile the Obama regime is instructing the FBI and other law enforcement agencies to delete terms, phrases, and language, from their law enforcement and educational materials that put Islam and "jihad" in a bad light, and further instructing said agencies that they will no longer use said certain terms, phrases, and language that put Islam and Jihad in a bad light. Meanwhile, DHS is sending out "one might be a terrorist if" to local law enforcement agencies around the country, if you have anti-government bumper stickers on your car like "Don't Tread on Me", "Live Free or Die", or "Ron Paul". Now the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point, founded in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attack, by Muslims flying planes into buildings, just recently issued a report about domestic groups it claims pose a threat to the U.S. No not international Islamic terrorism and, how convenient, not domestic Islamic terrorism either, i.e. like the "workplace incident" at Fort Hood" which is one of their special redefined terms when a Muslim is involved, but a report on other domestic groups breaking them down into three categories — the Racist/White Supremacy Movement, the Anti-Federalist Movement, and the Christian Fundamentalist Movement. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the trends and where this is heading, i.e. who they view and don't view from their perspective as the true enemy in this country. Obama is the head of this monster and you can see where Obama is leading this monster, as he hugs terrorists groups like the Muslim Brotherhood in the White House, playing "defensive guard" for Islam, while at the same time, going after those whom he views as his enemies. Since Obama is the President, Obama's enemies become the enemies of his regime, and, hold on to your "assault" rifles, we are it.
By the way, have you notice that Obama has never said "bitter gun and Quran clingers", who around the globe and in this country, shout "Allahu Akbar" as they persecute and murderously kill, literally clinging to their guns and their Qurans?
I like Walid a lot and find much of what he has to say interesting, but still... I'm Catholic and just by faith trust the The Church's exegesis on these matters. Particularly when it comes to Revelation. He's right on though when he says you can't just cherry pick scriptures. It all flows together and when read in it's fullness, it makes perfect sense. A lesson both Catholics and Protestants can benefit from.
You don't have to speculate who Obama is; you have eyes and a brain to know him. He stands for everything that America is not, and what Christianity is not and we don't know it by trying to pull up facts from his background like, when in Kenya did he practice Islam? His father and step-father were both Muslim, so what about Obama? We know little about his past love-life with women--is he gay? No, that isn't important. What's important is his current statements and behavior. He said that he will change the America as we know it and he is trying to do just that. He wrote that he will stand behind Islam if the chips fall as they may, and he is dong that. What's the questoin?
THESE ARE AMERICA’S MOST (& LEAST) ‘BIBLE-MINDED’ CITIES (HOW DOES YOURS RANK?)
Why does it not surprise me that the LEAST "Bible-minded" cities are in New England? That's why I always scream: NO MORE NEW ENGLAND CANDIDATES!
Not just a muslim but a true communist and a traitor to boot.
We the People are on our own. We have no representation in DC. I hope you have all prepared yourselves and your families for the coming Troubles.
If not, you had better do so IMMEDIATELY. Food, water, guns and ammo along with shelter and fuel.
I, too, believe obama is a muslim and the media is his accomplice because they've basically looked the other way and allowed him to enter American politics without challenging his credentials. No other politicians has been given such a "free ride" by the media, so apparently the media wants to see America crippled permanently by the fraud in the White House!!!!
He's a prepper? I'm a prepper! Wouldn't you like to be a prepper too?
Sorry. I couldn't help myself. The door was left open and I just had to walk in.
I hope you people realize that this mystic medievalist garbage is actually hurting the cause against Obama and the Left, just as much as conspiracy theories do. Rationally-minded people, of which there are many, will rightly reject this nonsense, but sadly, too many will be driven (by you) into the statist camp, just in order to escape from this creeping medievalism of America.
It might have escaped your notice, but we had something called a Renaissance some centuries ago, in what was known as "the age of reason". Mysticism rightly died as a global power, yet what do I see here but an attempt to revive mysticism like a witch doctor trying to revive a corpse.
If it wasn't for Ayn Rand, I swear, you mystic medievalists would have driven me straight into Obama's lap. I probably would've been a statist, and you lot would have been the ones responsible for that.
And sadly, nothing will sway you; not even the knowledge of how much you're empowering Obama and the Left by driving rationally-minded individuals toward them, like cows to the slaughterhouse.
so everyone who believes in God is not rational? Must suck going through life believing you have no purpose and that when you die, you die. There is nothingness and blackness. Where then do we get our rights from? Government? No! You will say. But then who? Just because someone decided it was a nice thing?? Where do your morals come from and your rights come from I ask? And while you're complaining about "mysticism" the Muslims are at your door. Should be an interesting conversation telling them they are mystics and irrational. Wonder how that will go over.
You might actually be on to something here, albeit for all the wrong reasons:
"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many." Matthew 7:13
In other words the great masses will always follow the path that leads to their doom, but it's the narrow-minded few who will actually find their way by taking the more difficult and less popular route. Just because Americans are losing their faith en masse doesn't mean their trajectory is "upward"; rather it is downward.
"They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 2 Peter 3:4
This is the generation that is declaring its independence from God by declaring, "Where is this Jesus you always talk about? How do we know He even existed? We've heard that He was supposed to come back for centuries now and He never has! Everything is as it was and always will be. He isn't coming back, if He ever existed at all!"
Oh, but let's read on!
"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." 2 Peter 3:8-10
And by the way, apparently even YOU support all of this "mystical garbage" because you're defending liberty, which is a uniquely American ideal, and is based upon Christian "mystical garbage" -- that all men are Created equal and endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights. No other nation on earth ever devised this model, only the US! If you didn't believe this "mystical garbage, you certainly wouldn't be here, you'd be over at HuffPo with all of the other atheistic marxists demanding a free cellphone.
"The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine was brutally assaulted by the Founders.
John Adams wrote, “The Christian religion is, above all the religion that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard [scoundrel, rogue] Paine say what he will.”
Samuel Adams wrote Paine a stiff rebuke, telling him, “[W]hen I heard you had turned your mind to a defence of infidelity, I felt myself much astonished and more grieved that you had attempted a measure so injurious to the feelings and so repugnant to the true interest of so great a part of the citizens of the United States.”
Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration, wrote to his friend and signer of the Constitution John Dickinson that Paine's Age of Reason was “absurd and impious”.
Charles Carroll, a signer of the Declaration, described Paine's work as “blasphemous writings against the Christian religion”.
John Witherspoon said that Paine was “ignorant of human nature as well as an enemy to the Christian faith”.
Elias Boudinot, President of Congress, even published the Age of Revelation -- a full-length rebuttal to Paine's work.
Even his friend Benjamin Franklin warned him NOT TO PUBLISH IT, but he refused to listen:
"I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person; whereby you will save yourself a great deal of mortification by the enemies it may raise against you, and perhaps a good deal of regret and repentance. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it?"
"The Age of Reason" stood in contradiction to the Founders' principles and the American way of life. Atheism ALSO stands in stark contrast to American values, and it is the "mystical garbage" of Judeo/Christianity that has sustained our nation for over 200 years. And while the atheistic communist experiment failed miserably in the former Soviet Union and around the world, the faith of our fathers has made ours the greatest nation on the face of the earth.
Praise God for His "mystical garbage"!
Quote: ""The Age of Reason" stood in contradiction to the Founders' principles and the American way of life. Atheism ALSO stands in stark contrast to American values, and it is the "mystical garbage" of Judeo/Christianity that has sustained our nation for over 200 years."
You've got it backwards. The founders were students of the Renaissance and of the epistemology of reason, which was its backbone. The founders weren't Christian zealots, but we simply deists (ie. they were spiritual people, but they weren't religious fanatics).
What American values do you think Atheism contrasts with? Mysticism isn't an American value. It's just medievalist garbage that unfortunately came over with the hyper-religious Irish immigration wave.
Judeo/Christianity didn't "sustain the nation for 200 years". The political ideas of Capitalism, the Free Market and Individual rights were that sustenance. None of those are inherently religious in nature. All of them have a grounding in Objective reality and Reason, the antithesis' to Mysticism and Faith.
Look, Stage9, I've dealt with you before. I know you want a theocracy, and not a constitutional republic. You've made that clear to me in our previous discussion that you chose not to continue.
The bottom line is, if everything you said was true, then we'd be living in a Christian theocracy, NOT a constitutional republic where individuals have the individual rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - Especially not the last one too, because pursuing one's happiness is an extremely 'selfish' affair; something that the Christian "good Samaritan / you are your brother's keeper" crowd are utterly repulsed by.
You've dealt with a lot of us before Kordane, and many of your comments border on being offensive- equating our belief in Christ as mysticism and medieval garbage.
I'm not going to argue Stage9's belief for him because he speaks his better than I do mine, but you have no right to accuse him of wanting a theocracy.
Christians know there is no theocracy- ours is in Heaven, not on earth.
I don't understand this persistent attempt to drag Christianity through the mud to side with you. It is certainly not with those who favor abortion and gay marriage (unscriptual divorce for that matter). But that does not mean you are in the clear. Everyone want to claim, 'Jesus is with me' and yet they are not with him. Don't you know that words come easy, actions are much harder to tame. Even the founders that you quoted are condenmed by their toleration of slavery.
1 John 4:20 -If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen.
Matthew 5:44 - But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
How many Christians actually follow these words. You try to make Jesus political, when he avoided the politics of his day and told his followers :
John 15:19 - If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
It was after the pagan Constintine fused Christianity with the State that so-called Chrsitians began to get their hands bloodied in wars, disobeying their lord and master (the persecuted had become the persecutors). Ever since prostituting herself for power Christianity no longer follows Christ.
Even today I couldn't believe that so-called Christians were supporting a Mormon for President (mormon deny the divinity of Christ), even Billy Graham list Mormons as a cult, but took it down since they were supporting him.
Matthew 10:33 - But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
I guess most Christians wanted to win a political contest than stay true to their savior Jesus. Please make your political arguments, but stop dragging Jesus in the mud with you.
After seeing what many regulars here comment about for the past 2 years, I'd venture that the most of them are on Jesus' side, even while loving America and it's founding.
But it is true, I feel the same way when people try to imply that Jesus loves gay people. Yes he loves people and want them to repent, but he doesn't love the sin. Some are constantly trying to get Jesus on their side instead of getting on his side.
If it's wrong, by all means say so- I have nothing against that- I do it all the time, as you pointed out ;-) But comparing folks who appreciate what the founders envisioned for the government and for the people with dragging Jesus' name through the mud because we're Christians yet trying to keep this nation strong is a bit much and tends to not sit well with folks.
See I can agree with you to a point.
we are living in the world- and while we are not of it, (agree)
we still must fight and work for good while we are here (as a christian your orders come from God, so where does he say to mix in with politics)
But don't you do alot of blaming on this site? If it was wrong, is it wrong to say it's wrong?
built the form of government which has been the best mode (I can agree that this is the best man can do).
based heavily on Judeo/Christian principles (while this is true, don't ignor that it has fallen short of those principal even during its inception.
But again my friend, this scripture has nothing to do with government though.
Jesus is talking about the fruit of our lives. In other words, is my life producing the fruits of righteousness or unrighteousness? It is also speaking of how we as believers can know whether we or others are walking with Christ. We know them (Christians, believers) by their fruit. That is, when someone claims to be a Christian, is what they're saying and doing consistent with God's Word?
For example, if a person claims to be a Christian but then defends the murder of the unborn, is that person's "fruit" -- that which is the evidence of Christ's work within them -- consistent with Christianity? We would agree that it is not.
I mean if you're saying that there are those in government who claim to be Christians but aren't, then OK, I would agree with you 100%. (Of course, there are many churches like that too, but that's another story for another day). But I can't see anything that leads me to believe that government itself is off limits.
The only place where government is really addressed directly in the Gospels is when Jesus was tested by the Pharisees in regard to paying the tribute (tax).
They showed Him a coin upon which Cesar's image appeared and asked: " Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not?”
Jesus said: "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."
But that's about it.
Don`t forget ABiC, slavery is Very Much a part of sharia and islam....the pc crowd tends to ignore the reality....
"You have to understand why God allows men to govern themselves, then you can understand why these things happen and why bad things happen."
I completely understand these things. My point is, we are living in the world- and while we are not of it, we still must fight and work for good while we are here. Blaming the Founders for not taking the slavery issue to end it right then and there is something that can't be changed. They were imperfect just as you and I are imperfect. That said, they still built the form of government which has been the best model, and one which was based heavily on Judeo/Christian principles.
stage9, I am not judging, I am just stating a fact. It was Jesus who said:
Matthew 7:17-20 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
So who really is a Christian? Someone who says they are or someone who actually follows what Christ says?
You judge people, you condemn people as wanting to destroy this country. Do you judge on what they say or what they do?
Um... show me where Jesus forbids it! OK, I will.
Are you equating the slavery regulated (not approved) by God in the Old Testament to Racial Slavery by greedy men. Any Israelite who fell upon hard times could sell himself into slavery for a period of time (like an indentured servant) they were not slave perpetually (they could own property or make transaction), and they were not treated cruelly, there were laws against it (they were not treated as second class citizens) in fact after seven years they were set free. No comparison. God also hates divorce but he allowed it also. You have to understand why God allows men to govern themselves, then you can understand why these things happen and why bad things happen.
You also have to know what things are Caesar's and what things are God's. Could you be giving things that belong to God to Caesar?
Jesus never condemned or condoned involvement in earthly government. He says to render unto Caesar's that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's. God sets up kings and kingdoms. While we don't worship any, there is nothing un Biblical about trying to make a better nation through political process- and our Founders had the best ideas for this nation.
You've argued with me before on Scoop about the slavery issue. Tell me then, is God worthy of condemnation as well since He recognized slaves in the OT? He might not condone it, but He gave provisions concerning them.
1) I don't doubt that Jefferson knew it to be wrong, he was just not principled enough to apply those beliefs to his own household.
I think you're being EXTREMELY unfair to judge the heart of another man. It IS FAIR to ask WHY Jefferson owned slaves, but it's NOT FAIR to judge his intentions.
Benjamin Franklin tells us WHY, in THAT DAY AND AGE this was an impossibility.
. . . a disposition to abolish slavery prevails in North America, that many of Pennsylvanians have set their slaves at liberty, and that even the Virginia Assembly have petitioned the King for permission to make a law for preventing the importation of more into that colony. This request, however, will probably not be granted as their former laws of that kind have always been repealed.
Every time they attempted to abolish slavery PRIOR TO the Revolution, the British government attempted to stop them.
The biggest problem with 21st century man is that he sits under the banner of freedom and liberty ON THIS SIDE OF THE REVOLUTION, and THIS SIDE OF HISTORY and then tries to impose 21st century views upon forgone ages.
"Well, if I were there I would've done it differently!"
Yeah, right! You would've been just like everyone else!
Hindsight is always 20/20 when you weren't there. We hear this in regard to the Crusades, which were defensive wars against muslim invaders (but you wouldn't know that today); we hear this about the Israelites in regard to ancient methods of war and community survival -- "How could God allow the murder of the Amalekites?" http://www.christianthinktank.com/rbutcher1.html But you and I weren't there. We don't live in an ancient culture where our very survival and the survival of our community was constantly under threat by outside invaders.
You know, some people will ask in years to come why so many stood by and allowed counterfeit marriage to be imposed or why they allowed abortionists to murder so many innocent lives and they will judge us. They will accuse many in this generation of not being morally upright. And they're RIGHT! in part.
But that WON'T be the whole story, will it? Because many ARE TRYING TO END ABORTION and prevent counterfeit marriage from becoming legalized, and we're doing the best we can with what we have at the moment. We won't stop fighting until the battle is won!
The Founders were under the same conviction. Many of them didn't want slavery, and they fought it as best they could at the time with what they had. Unfortunately, their wish wouldn't come until YEARS LATER when the ACTUAL BATTLE WAS WON!
2) Not enough to say Jesus did not forbade involvement in Government. Show me where he gave consent for his followers to delve into the messy business of politics. Show me.
Um... show me where Jesus forbids it! Why is it not enough to say that He didn't forbid it? Is it because you can't accept that position? Well, I'm sorry you can't force that into your view, but it's still a fact: Jesus did not forbid our involvement in government. And since it is NOT a MORAL issue to do so or not do so, it is not forbidden.
1) "Even the founders that you quoted are condemned by their toleration of slavery."
Words are easy, Actions are hard! I am aware of the eloquent words used by some to condemn slavery or the trade of men. And it is easy to pull a few quotes here and there. But like Jesus said it is by their fruits that you identify who they are. So yes there are words of condemnation, but actions matter most.
I don't doubt that he knew it to be wrong, he was just not principled enough to apply those beliefs to his own household. Nor did most of them. Abolitionists of the day were the conscience of the nation, so there are no excuses that can be made. None.
2) "You try to make Jesus political, when he avoided the politics of his day and told his followers....
Not enough to say Jesus did not forbade involvement in Government. Show me where he gave consent for his followers to delve into the messy business of politics. Show me.
And are you saying Jesus was a coward. What should those early christian have done when the Romans persecuted them? Do you have trust and faith in Jesus or not? Politics only leads a Christian to compromise.
1) "Even the founders that you quoted are condenmed by their toleration of slavery."
This is a complete myth.
President of Congress Henry Laurens explained:
I abhor slavery. I was born in a country where slavery had been established by British Kings and Parliaments as well as by the laws of the country ages before my existence. . . . In former days there was no combating the prejudices of men supported by interest; the day, I hope, is approaching when, from principles of gratitude as well as justice, every man will strive to be foremost in showing his readiness to comply with the Golden Rule ["do unto others as you would have them do unto you" Matthew 7:12]. 1
Prior to the time of the Founding Fathers, there had been few serious efforts to dismantle the institution of slavery. John Jay identified the point at which the change in attitude toward slavery began:
Prior to the great Revolution, the great majority . . . of our people had been so long accustomed to the practice and convenience of having slaves that very few among them even doubted the propriety and rectitude of it.2
The Revolution was the turning point in the national attitude–and it was the Founding Fathers who contributed greatly to that change. In fact, many of the Founders vigorously complained against the fact that Great Britain had forcefully imposed upon the Colonies the evil of slavery. For example, Thomas Jefferson heavily criticized that British policy:
He [King George III] has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. . . . Determined to keep open a market where men should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce [that is, he has opposed efforts to prohibit the slave trade].3
Of course there were many others but space does not permit.
2) "You try to make Jesus political, when he avoided the politics of his day and told his followers...."
That's because the FIRST TIME Jesus did NOT come to set up a government or to influence government in any way. His sole purpose was to take the sins of mankind on His shoulders. But is that where the story ends? Of course not!
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6
Now you and I both know that the "government" referred to here is not referencing any NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, but is alluding to the fact that the Lord will be a ruler of nations. He is called the "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" in Revelation 19:16, What is a King except a "ruler"?
And to claim that Jesus forbade our involvement in government is absurd! He did no such thing...ANYWHERE! The scripture you reference is Jesus warning of persecution on believers who take a stand with Christ in this world. He says the world will hate you for this because they hate God, and because they hate God, they will hate you too!
Even today I couldn't believe that so-called Christians were supporting a Mormon for President (mormon deny the divinity of Christ), even Billy Graham list Mormons as a cult, but took it down since they were supporting him.
Hey, on this point I couldn't agree more! I didn't support him either, but for other moral reasons. However, I still don't read ANYWHERE where the Lord commands us to NOT get involved in politics or to pursue justice. It's easy to be tough and say: "Don't get involved." That is until they come for your children and snatch them out of your arms like they did in Germany. The problem with white Americans is that many of us are cowards and hide behind Christianity to avoid getting our hands dirty and we call that "piety". It is nothing of the kind. It is spiritual cowardice and sin to know what aught to be done and not do anything. (James 4:17)
1. Frank Moore, Materials for History Printed From Original Manuscripts, the Correspondence of Henry Laurens of South Carolina (New York: Zenger Club, 1861), p. 20, to John Laurens on August 14, 1776
2. John Jay, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G. P. Putnam’s Sons, 1891), Vol. III, p. 342, to the English Anti-Slavery Society in June 1788.
3. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1903), Vol. I, p. 34.
your "rational minded" thinking will not spare you from the wrath of Islam or the left,true Christianity will never harm you for your beleifs or lak there of...and conspiracy theories are always theories right up until there proven true aren't they....goodluck to you..
Rational-thinking is exactly what's needed in the fight against Islam. The whole reason why people think "Islam is a religion of peace" is entirely because people aren't thinking rationally.
Going on about the bloody "Anti-Christ", is only harming the cause. People don't buy into that mystic crap. This is the 21st century for crying out loud. We don't live in the freaking middle ages where such ideas were mainstream thought. We had a Renaissance which rightly threw such nonsense in the trash bin of history.
You know what this 'rationally-minded' individual would do to the forces of Islam? I'd nuke the crap out of them until they became totally and utterly demoralized, and then came on their hands and knees to us to beg for surrender on ANY terms we demand, including their renunciation of Islam. I'd treat them just like we treated the Japanese. Total war is effective, it has worked in history, and it would work again against the scourge of Islam.
I won't speak to your beliefs, or lack of them. However, I must tell you that anyone who is rationally-minded would never support Obama or the left in this country, regardless of religious views. The Constitution, which is an actual document, written by actual people, is under assault by this government - left and right. If you are rationally-minded, as you say, then you need nothing else. I am a tad suspicious of you, my dear.
You underestimate the sickening effect of the mystic medievalist mindset on the mind of a rational individual. Such is the revulsion towards it that it can drive people into Obama's lap, who would otherwise be valuable champions for the cause of liberty.
I'm often disgusted by all this mysticism, but I put up with it because I know that the Right's ideals of Capitalism, the Free Market and Individual Rights, are all based on Objective reality and Reason, and that those who claim to be defenders of those things based on Mysticism and Faith are fundamentally wrong.
Think about the term "Individual Rights" for a moment. When do you ever hear anything other than how "They're god given rights"? I know they're not, of course. But that's all you hear in the culture. So tell me, why should ANYONE accept the validity of individual rights, if everyone is telling them that they're based on mysticism and faith? Rationally minded individuals will just throw the principle of Individual Rights back at your face. I know that every time I hear how individual rights are "God given", I cringe inside.
Shoebat: "The enemy will always accuse you of the very thing the enemy is guilty of."
This is a faithful saying and true. This is a psychological defense called projection. It is a symptom of a mental disorder and/or spiritual deception and/or rebellion against GOD, which are pretty much one and the same thing.
We have seen it over and over from Obama, the rest of the leftist cabal, the media and even Romney, who governed like a leftist's leftist and ran his primary campaign by Alinsky's rules.
Shoebat exposes the fact - that bowing to a stone in Mecca is idolatry.
Obedience to Islam's books results in violations of human rights and racism, hate for Jews, Christians and all who do not submit. Islam is misogynistic and male chauvinistic, maltreating women, children of both sexes. Islam allows or encourages violence, dishonesty, aggression, rape, slavery, pedophilia, bestiality, sodomy, even cannibalism. It is a religion of the fallen flesh, producing the works of the flesh.
God put enmity between Satan and the woman and look how islam views women...with enmity. Coincidence?
Shoebat's argument for Islam being an anti-Christ spirit is credible. But so is atheism, pansexualism, communism, Nazi socialism, radical environmentalism, Wicca, satanism and other movements that reject Christ and exalt their own solutions for the human problem of sin, pain and separation from God.
The Apostle John wrote, "Even now (2000 years ago) many anti-Christs have come..."
Anyone or any group or ideology that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and denies that Jesus is divine and came in the flesh and is the Messiah, or denies that humans sin, is operating in an anti-Christ spirit.
I would disagree regarding your reference to Wicca. It is nothing like Islam/Muslim faith and Wicca is very non-threatening to the Christian religion. In fact, the Christian religion is based in many aspects on the old pagan ways that are incorporated into modern Wicca. Just saying.... just because people don't embrace Christ or the Christian religion does not necessarily make them evil. However, I do have strong concerns regarding the Muslim religion/political movement for all the reasons that have been stated here. Just wanted to clarify that Wicca is not evil nor is it even remotely like the Muslim faith.
ANY spirit that exalts itself against the truth of Christ is anti-Christ.
Islam demotes Christ to a lesser prophet and exalts Mohammed over Christ, denies Christ's divinity and the divinity of the Holy Spirit.
I believe though that he says this because Islam directly speaks against Christ. Aethism just says I don't believe in any god. Islam specifically mentions Christ and says He is not the Son of God but just a man.