911Infidel
I was never able to finish reading The Purpose Driven Life. I have not trusted Mr. Warren for some reason, and I do not get a witness on his supposed belief in Jesus Christ in the born-again Christian sense. I see his Celebrate Recovery in churches everywhere, and I hope these classes are helping someone. They sure did not have the presence of God in there when I attended.
So it is quite gratifying for me to read this, that someone else has a low opinion of him, too.
Ecumenism extended to Islam is very tricky. It is not impossible but the goal has to be peace until conversion. Long term coexistence is philosophically impossible by definition.
I suggest you evangelicals tamp down your righteous anger and extend to pastor Warren the benefit of the doubt as a brother in Christ.
This is harder for you rebels since your bent is to go find a new pastor or start a new church every time you get riled up. I swam the Tiber years ago. As a member of the Universal (Catholic) Church this sort of thing is a normal occurrence. The Church the Lord founded has grown as he predicted; a great tree and the "Birds of the Air", servants of the Enemy, roost in its branches.
Some of these evil spirits work through well-meaning religious who are "harmless as doves" but dumb as a rock in the ways of the world. I know a fine priest who enlisted my sister's aid creating a foundation to reach out for this same goal the loons in this post call Chrislam. She asked my opinion of the project. My answer was withering to say the least.
Show some mercy but don't be silent. Speak out plainly in love. When talking about Islam though the truth is so unpalatable that some or our less realistic brethren won't see any "love" in your message. So be it.
You know, it's always troubled me, as a reader of the "self-help" books when big church leaders started publishing those things. To me, these books revolve around things like the Dale Carnegie publications and have nothing to do with anything other than developing the business/community leader. This video is great because it really draws out what has been bothering me about that whole thing. Watered down anything isn't any good. So why should a Christian accept this form of 'Christianity'? On the plus side, the wheat and the chaff are being separated. Time to draw the line in the sand. Great post, Scoop! Thanks.
I have as much use for him as I do the moneygrubbing Joel Olsteen and his wife. It's all about WEALTH with them. Makes me ill!
The only thing I remember about reading Purpose Driven Life years ago is being vastly underwhelmed after having heard so much hype.
This video proves Warren is essentially a Community Organizer attempting to create a worldly Utopia by abandoning the Truth. I have no doubt some, perhaps many, of his critics are Pharisees. But he is a Sadducee.
The following statement alone reveals a lack of faith and commitment serious enough to disqualify him from Christian leadership.
"The future of the world is religious pluralism." ~Rick Warren
This video includes important information for all of us who are concerned about the quality of leadership in the Christian church as the Bible instructs we must be. Thank you for posting it.
I started reading the Purpose Driven Life years ago and did not even finish the first chapter. I saw a few problems with his exegesis of scripture. What really opened my eyes was the prayer that he performed at Obama's first inauguration. During that prayer he used the name of Isa, which means Jesus in Islam. My problem with his use of Isa comes from the fact that Muslims don't see Jesus as He is in the Bible. Muslims don't believe Jesus was the Son of God, they don't believe that he died on a cross and thus died to provide redemption for sin etc.
I had to ask myself why would a "minister" of the Gospel call upon and pray in the name (Isa) of a person which another religion has nullified ?
There is no question that Islam misrepresents Jesus. But Islam is not a language. "Jesus" is Greek (and English, obviously) for the Hebrew "Joshua" or "Yeshua".
In the former Soviet Socialist Republic of Kazakhstan, both Kazakh and Russian are spoken. "Jesus" in Russian is "Yesus" (Иисус) . "Jesus" in Kazakh is "Isa". I learned them both from evangelical Christian Kazakhs in Kazakhstan. While Islamic references to "Isa" do falsely deny the reality of his divinity, the guy in the video is wrong to declare across the board that "Isa" is not "Jesus". Why didn't he say Je·sús [Spanish he-soos] is not Jesus?
In the prayer at Obama's first inauguration, Warren said the name of Jesus in a Hebrew, Spanish, and English as well as Arabic (or Kazakh). That particular usage is perfectly natural when speaking to a multilingual audience or when emphasizing the universal applicability of the Gospel. Warren's abandonment of the Truth is very serious. But, there nothing wrong with language translation.
Language is one thing. Context is another.
If you are praying in the name of Jesus - why would he mention the arabic name that Muslims deny as having anything to do with Salvation? Why did Warren use Isa? Was it to connect with the Muslim faith? Was it to placate Obama?
While I understand that Isa means Jesus and there are people of that name in the Arabic/Turkish communities, Arabic is used for the most part by Muslims. So, I would venture to say that some people understood his reference to be offensive based upon this understanding.
Yes, I agree with you that there is an abandonment of the truth. I would then be cautious of the context regarding everything the man says.
May I take this opportunity to point out what Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote about Cheap and Costly Grace. Two pull quotes:
• "Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate."
• "Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock.
Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: "ye were bought at a price," and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God."
Please read it all - it ain't as long as the video ...:
http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Bonhoeffer.html
and remember that Dietrich Bonhoeffer lived it and died for it, in Nazi Germany.
When Jesus spoke to the people, he used the words of the Old Covenant, the Old Testament. The scriptures are the word of G_d and bring conviction. Every great wave of revival has been founded on repentance from hearing the Word of the Lord. Romans 10:17 So faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of G_d. It is the word of G_d that brings man to repentance.
No person is saved absent from the Word of God. You are correct.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
No person is saved absent from the Holy Spirit as well.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
I was born physically on Feb. 1, 1971. Two things had to come together in order for me to be conceived, my father's seed and my mother's egg. Because of sin, my father's seed was corrupt. Bible says (1 Pet. 1:23) we have to be born of incorruptible see. That incorruptible seed is the Word of God.
Since I was born a sinner because of my father's corrupt seed, I must be born again (John 3:3). In order for the new man to be born, two things still have to come together in order for the new man to be conceived, the Word of God (the incorruptible seed) and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit calls (John 6:44), convinces, and convicts. It's the Holy Spirit that calls a person to the Word of God. No man seeks after God, the Spirit woos them to His Word. Upon hearing the Word of God, the Spirit convinces and convicts the sinner of his sin.
If the sinner obeys the Holy Spirit and truly repents before God, he becomes born again.
Anything short of this, when the sinner dies his physical death (as we all will) he will lift his eyes up in hell for eternity.
Agree Scoop! There are a lot of false teachers out there, especially on TV. It amazed me that John Piper would want this man to speak at his conference. I consider John Piper to be a great teacher with strong discernment. But he certainly left me scratching my head on that one. The prosperity gospel is going to send a lot of people to hell.
On a side note, here are some great pastors that are not ashamed of the gospel: John MacArthur(you can find at GTY.org), Steve Lawson, Albert Mohler(Albertmohler.com), RC Sproul(ligonier.org), and Tom Pennington (countrysidebible.org)
Ephesians 5:6-14
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,
“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
Expositors Bible Commentary:
Yet another exhortation is added to that in v. 8. Christians are to have no share (sygkoinōneite; cf. v. 7) in “the barren deeds of darkness” (NEB). They are not to be involved in them. Notice that it is the “deeds” (ergoi) that have to be shunned, not the doers. Paul is not advocating pharisaical separatism. The follower of Christ will go where his master went and meet those his master met. But though he does not withdraw from the world, he refuses to adopt its standards or fall in with its ways. He is concerned to produce “the fruit of the light” (v. 9), and darkness is sterile. So far from participating in them, believers should expose these practices. When the object is a person, the verb (elegehō) means to convince or reprove.
Unfortunately, I am not as well read in the Bible as I should be. This prevents me from bringing an effective and being able to articulate an argument for this post.
If a pastor is ordained by God, you should be very VERY careful not to harm what God has ordained.
Now this doesn't mean that a pastor can do no evil. I wish I knew the Bible verse that addresses my point.
Would this be what you are referring to?
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
To answer the original question of Why does anyone pay attention to Rick Warren anymore?
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Also:
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
This is the answer. It's the Truth.
I see nothing wrong with Rick Warren or what he preaches. He preaches the good news, that a good life can be found in Christ. Wow, that's sacrilege! Jesus Christ Almighty! Everyone is a critic. He can't breath without being criticized for not breathing like Christ did! The problem with Christianity and for that matter conservatism is not Rick Warren; it's stinking Christians and conservatives that divide themselves by warring against each other rather than the real adversaries! There are plenty of radical, secularist out there to go after well before we should be going around kicking people like Rick Warren around like a box!
God bless you Steven! Finally, someone that I can agree with concerning Warren! Yeesh, I was starting to think I was alone in this crazy world, lol!
Because he voted for obama? He got swallowed like so many others by obama..er..charm. That was disgusting. I liked him before and after that great forum with McCain and obama - was so funny and obama got so ridiculed by Warren. But then, for some reason, sometimes before the 08 elections, he suddenly fell in love..
Yikes. Too bad for such a good man to fall for such a fraud.
Voted for Obama? Fell in love with Obama? Bull puckey! Where's your proof on this!?
I have always been repulsed by Rick Warren. All you have to do is read his hideous book to know that it has nothing to do with God's message. It's all about Rick. People in his own church who confront him are ostracized and minimized. This is one evil little man. He should be in a carnival, because he is a con man - and I think that is an insult to carnival folks.
If you're talking about The Purpose Driven Life, I'm on Chapter Four and so far I haven't found the problems people have been saying about it!
I have LOVED your posts and have followed the Right Scoop for awhile now. Thank you for doing what you are doing! However, I feel the need to rebut something...
I used to think like you until we began ministering to people in Europe (we live in Germany) to those who have never heard or those who think God is irrelevant. Like it or not, our churches in America are losing influence in society because they are not relevant.
I TOTALLY see what Rick Warren is doing. He is sticking to what God has given HIM as a mandate. We are all called to teach different areas. His is to reach people who the mainstream churches are losing....because they refuse to accept that people just don't want to hear their message anymore. They veil it with "they are watering down the gospel" through judgement. When the fact is that Rick Warren is reaching alot of people! Just pray for him instead of judging him. I don't know who these pastors are who are giving their opinions on this video, but I wonder how large or influential their churches are, and how many actual unchurched people will listen to what they have to say.
I guarantee that RW teaches repentance...but the fact is that he doesn't answer to these critics...he just has to do what God told HIM to do. His message isn't salvation (which he obviously teaches on), his message is get out and get into the game of life with your God-given talents! Why do these guys think that everyone has to teach to the same thing? Or has to approach reaching unchurched people the same way you do? If the church doesn't wake up to this pretty soon, America is going to look like Europe where God is ignored as outright irrelevant.
A few more to be wary of: Creflo Dollar, T. D. Jakes, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, and Rod Parsley
People misunderstand the wheat and tares parable. The Epistles and the 2-3 chapters of Revelation talk about keeping false teachers, false shepherds and unrepentant sinners out of the Church. They are not supposed to stay and cause problems or infect and influence the teaching and ministries of the Church.
In this parable, Jesus is talking about the world, not the Church. The Church is supposed to be a safe place where people grow in holiness and learn to walk in Christ.
Islam is a rigid cultist ideology that imposes itself on others against their will. God didn't give us free will so that some Arabs could take it away by force. God doesn't require man to impose his will. If he did, he would not be GOD, he would be a false god.
The doctrines of the Islamic trilogy, the Quran,hadiths,and syrah, cannot be changed in anyway, to do so is to invite the charge of blasphemy and the penalty of death.
The words of the prophet Mohamed through the Angel Gabriel are considered pure for all time as they have been written. There will be be no reaffirmation with Islam in anyway.
This clown's church is minutes away from my house. I have a distrust for people like this because they will do anything, such as watering down the Gospel, to bring more dollars into the church. We have become a society of excuses and personal responsibility has gone out the window.
I'm Catholic and at my church they are good at reminding us what's important. I'll be the first to admit my religion is far from perfect and other Christians wonder why I hang on. Despite all the challenges and questionable dogma, I never felt the religion itself (not the folks in charge of it) has moved too far away from tradition. The way the church was when I was a kid, is pretty much the same now and I like that. I know God loves me, but I do fear his wrath and I was brought up believing God was always watching me.
I have said this before and I will keep saying it, Christians are "turning the other cheek" way too much. We don't fight anymore and I believe this is why we are all in this mess. We allowed ourselves to straddled the fence with Satan.
The RC has compromised with Islam too - look at CCC #841 in the Catechism. This is theological heresy for the sake of political correctness and/or for paying for protection.
I heard about this and it bugs me because the RC history would definitely counter that. Sigh...
These guys like him just make it out that if you're just a good person and go to church then you're cool. Problem is....the Devil doesn't care if you're good. He doesn't care if you go to church. He just doesn't want you saved. If being good makes you think there is no need to be saved the Devil is more than happy with that line of thinking.
I agree with you Ryan, but I would add that Rick Warren wants people saved not just living a good life.
The Rick Warren PEACE plan is critically different from Christ's PEACE plan and critically different from the definition of PEACE that the Bible and Gospel teach.
Warren's PEACE Plan changes the Great Commission and ends up with good, but tainted and perhaps dead works.
Christ's PEACE Plan is this:
- Preach the Gospel to all creatures in all the world, baptising them in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
- Educate Teach the Truth according to Scripture.
- Assess the spiritual, ideological, physical, relational condition of the persons who come to faith. Sometimes people have to be healed, delivered and renounce/recant evil and works of flesh, and learn to love and relate to others in a healthy way (including those with disordered carnal desires).
- Care, Covenant Community Bring the converts into covenant community, model love, teach them to care and share with one another.
- Equip them to go out in to all the world to preach, teach, heal, care, establish covenant communities, equip others....and so it goes on.
McLaren and Hybels mentioned in this video have gone soft on sexual sin and identity disorders...and now embrace the alternate sexual lifestyles that Scripture does not.
Warren has not done so, at least as far as I know. Celebrate Recovery, also a Saddleback ministry, has groups for people coming out of these high risk, unbiblical lifestyles.
It is dangerous to partner with unregenerates, like the gay and muslim groups, and secular groups like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, because along with their philanthropy, they foment anti-Christian agendas like abortion, pansexuality (LBGTQXYZ) and political leftism. Bill Gates father was president of Planned Parenthood.
Muslim core writings and doctrine constitutes a violation of basic human rights and a violation of the US Constitution. There is no way around that. Its main raison d'etre is hatred for Jews and Infidels.
Assuredly - The only true PEACE in Scripture is PEACE with GOD through reconciliation with GOD which only comes through repentance, surrender and obedience to the Commandments and Word of God and through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, through an act of GOD that occurs when a person hears the word preached and
GOD convicts that person of sin.
GOD grants repentance. II Timothy 2:24-25
GOD CHANGES the heart of a person and that person is BORN AGAIN from death into LIFE.
GOD writes HIS LAW in that person's heart.
GOD makes that person into a new creature (I Corinthians 5:17).
GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS Only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life - John 3:16
Unless a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of GOD - John 3:3
I AM THE Way, The Truth and The Life no man comes to the Father but through me. - John 14:6
Before Abraham was, I AM. - John 8:58
And this is that testimony - that evidence: God gave us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who possesses the Son has life, who does not possess the Son of GOD does not have that life. I John 5:11-12 Amplified Version
Jesus is IT - only Jesus is the Way.
Theological Purity ? It does not exist in this world so get over it. The truth is, we don't know the whole truth. What we do know is but one volume in a series of billions and billions of volumes without end. So don't be a biblical snob and think you know it all, because none of us do. I do know one thing, the truth is far greater than any of us could imagine.
"If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:32
The first step is knowing the Lord. You "can't know" unless you know the Object of all truth.
“I am THE way, and THE truth, and THE life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
Seems pretty clear that the TRUTH has already been made known to everyone. Accepting HIM is the problem.
Jesus said, (in several places in the Gospels)
"You are my disciples if you...
- continue in my Word
- take up your cross and follow me (crucify the flesh, natural mind, ways of world)
- love one another
- bear much fruit."
I didn't say he was just a teacher,....he is much more, as we all are much more than we appear.
Jesus IS the truth my friend. There is no "other truth". Jesus is it. He's what we've all been looking for but have been too afraid to acknowledge. Jesus said that if you "know Me then you know My Father" and His Father is the Creator mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.
Can human beings know the incredible depths of the mysteries of God on this side of eternity? No. We're simply not equipped for that.
But Christians will one day.
"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."
"Why does anyone still pay any attention to Rick Warren anymore?"
For the same reason they still pay attention to "Happy Houston" at Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas.... people like being told that they are "good people" apart from God and these "wolves" are all too ready to assure them that if they would just "think positive" (which is in fact a NEW AGE idea), they would be happy in life.
It doesn't take a whole lot of talent to fill an arena full of people if you tell them that they are good apart from God; you're only feeding the narcissism that is inherent in all of our sinful hearts already. If you hide the fact that there is a hell for those who reject God and tell them that sin is simply "doing bad things"; and that love is all that matters, despite the fact that the night before Sunday service you were out sleeping with someone you picked up at the local bar (which is considered sin), then you too can be a mega church charlatan.
Just "be good" and "think positive" no matter if you're a muslim or a hindu or even an atheist; for you too will "inherit the kingdom of heaven". Because to tell you that you won't is just too "negative", and you won't like me (or pay me) if I'm negative. No, love is all that matters, and God is just a giant teddy bear in the sky waiting to just pinch your cheek and escort you into heaven with a great big "Happy Houston" smile!
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." Matthew 7:21-23
Notice it's not through the miraculous works and signs that a person enters heaven. Those are IN FACT Christian attributes and are the "greater things you will do in my name" (John 14:12) that Jesus told us about; but it's BEING KNOWN BY GOD that allows you into heaven. It's RELATIONSHIP! And only those who do GOD'S WILL (NOT THEIR OWN WILL) are in relationship.
It's like being married but never acting like it. You leave the house, you take your ring off and flirt with a pretty co-worker. Then you come home and expect to find a loving wife there, but she's gone! WHY? You weren't committed to her; you were committed to yourself.
This is a picture of much of the modern church world. It's a "promiscuous Christianity" in which God is the lonely wife sitting at home while we're out cheating on Him.
And then we expect the Lord to let us back in His house when we've had our fill. Good luck with that.
"Come out from among them and be ye separate..." 2 Corinthians 6:17
---
If you think Mr Warren is bad, you'll really be shocked by THIS site:
THE MUSEUM OF IDOLATRY
And I know you like Paul Wilbur, SCOOP...you might also like Shane Idleman:
"And then we expect the Lord to let us back in His house when we've had our fill. Good luck with that."
God will receive anyone willing to turn from their sin and once received by God we are eternally in his care and nothing can take us out of His care.
You forgot the part that comes after turning from your sin (repenting) and that is accepting Jesus Christ as the Lord of your life. NO ONE comes to the Father but by Jesus.
The key is "to turn from their sin."
An adulterer who simply enjoys the lust of the night and then expects to get back into the house is in for a rude awakening. Anyone who LIVES in sin is not welcome back into the house unless He repents!
That depends on your definition of what hell is. Tell me something,...why does the Christian church reject to existence of ghost? Human spirits who are earthbound. It isn't 100% provable although, there is plenty of evidence that this occurs. If there are ghost then it would mean that these spirits escape hell somehow. How is this possible to escape Gods punishment?
Perhaps the concept of heaven and hell as presented by the church is flawed. Perhaps the teachings of heaven and hell are metaphors attempting to explain very complicated concepts to a primitive society. At the very least, it is a possibility.
That's not true though. Hell is full of people who never "eventually learned". They are those who REFUSED to learn. And frankly, they are those who never WANTED to learn.
repentance comes with accepting what you have been doing is wrong, and not the person you wish to be. Gods forgiveness is easy to receive, the hard part is forgiving yourself.
You pay the consequences regardless of anything else. Repentance is getting God's forgiveness for your sin. This allows you to continue in fellowship with God.
Not to everyone.
"(T)he reality of consequence smacks you square in the face" is supposed the first step and a GLARING CLUE that you're "off the reservation", but with some people they seem to press the accelerator even further and never get it.
Comment Policy: Please read our new comment policy before making a comment. In short, please be respectful of others and do not engage in personal attacks. Otherwise we will revoke your comment privileges.